Intro (voice over music):
Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast, presented by the National Federation of the Blind, the transformative membership and advocacy organization of Blind Americans. Live the life you want.
Anil Lewis:
Hi listeners. Welcome to the Nations Blind Podcast. This is not Melissa Riccobono, but it is Anil Lewis. And although Melissa's not with us today, I am joined by my wonderful colleague, Mr. Chris Danielsen. How you doing, Chris?
Chris Danielsen:
I'm great Anil, how are you, man?
Anil Lewis:
I'm doing great, man. You ready to talk to our Nation's Blind Podcast viewers about this wonderfully exciting topic?
Chris Danielsen:
Yes. Yeah. This is a topic everybody loves because we're going to talk about money.
Anil Lewis (singing):
Money, money, money, money.
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah, exactly.
Anil Lewis:
That'll be how we get some, or we're going to be talking about how we get money?
Chris Danielsen:
We'll talk a little bit about that maybe toward the end, but well, we do have some news to share about money. But before we do that, I guess we're going to do some more myth busting about the National Federation of the Blind.
Anil Lewis:
Sounds good.
Chris Danielsen:
Of course, it won't be myth busting for some of our listeners, but it will be for others. So we're going to talk about specifically paper money.
Anil Lewis:
Oh, so I know that myth. The National Federation of the Blind is against accessible currency.
Chris Danielsen:
So that has been the myth and it is not the case, and we'll talk about that. Now. It is true that back when the Federal Court of Appeals ruled in a lawsuit that the Department of the Treasury and the Bureau of Engraving and Printing needed to make the money accessible, we had some concerns about that court decision.
Anil Lewis:
That's important to let people know that there were concerns because I think that that's where the myth kind of starts. And it's true for many of the instances where we really recognize that nuance and the way that things are going, and we want to try to make sure that we as blind people don't become victims for someone else to move an agenda forward. So in those decisions, a lot of language around blind people are victims and blind people are incapable of doing... I mean, we have blind merchants that handle money all day, and there are other individuals, entrepreneurs, et cetera, different places that handle money all day. So it's not like it's inaccessible.
So we weren't against accessible currency, but we were definitely against the language that was being used, using us as pause toward progressing. But I do think that it is important for people to understand that we did not, if you reference our resolution at that time, it really does highlight that we had concerns about the process and the statements that were being made through the findings, through that legal process. But even in that resolution, you'll see that the resolveds are calling on the Bureau of Engraving and Printing to create currency that's better distinguishable by blind people for the convenience of it, not because we otherwise are incapable of accessing currency.
Chris Danielsen:
So our crack research department, Nation's Blind Podcast research department found resolution 2008-08, and it references the concerns, but it also references a 1994 resolution where we said that we supported the idea of accessible currency and the resolves, as you said, Anil, say, that we urged the United States Department of the Treasury to consider means to make the currency more accessible and therefore more convenient for a greater proportion of the population. I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but that's basically what it says. And then it says the really important thing in the further resolve, which is that we need to be involved as blind people in that process.
Anil Lewis:
Absolutely. And that's key to a lot of the things that we do. We don't want people going out doing what they think is good for blind people without talking to blind people.
Chris Danielsen:
Well, exactly.
Anil Lewis:
There are other nuances around this too that I think that a lot of people didn't take into consideration. So it's not as easy as, okay, now we're going to make the bills a different size and all that kind of stuff because it would then impact every vending machine in the country, every cash change machine in the country, all kinds of other technologies. So it's not as simple as it's only going to be the cost involved in creating the currency. We have to be responsible about the impact that it's going to have in a broader level.
Chris Danielsen:
And a lot of people too, Anil, think, well, just putting Braille dots on the currency would be acceptable and should be easy to do. But that's not in fact the case because as we know, unfortunately, not everybody reads Braille, but even if you used some kind of tactile thing that's like Braille, when you use money, it's in your wallet and it's in your pocket and it changes hands and it's always rubbing against other money and other things. And actually the countries that have put Braille dots on currency have found that they wear down after a while.
Anil Lewis:
And you're a world traveler, so you're probably familiar with this more so than I, but I took a trip to Spain and no, I think it was my trip to Italy when they were using the Euro, and there are different size bills and all that. And I respect and appreciate that other countries have been able to do that. So I don't think that, not doing it is the answer, but we should definitely build on best practice, learn from others, and make our own decisions as to what that more accessible currency would look and feel like.
Chris Danielsen:
Well, I think that's right and my experience, because I've traveled to Italy and to Spain and to Ireland a few times and the UK, and it's not about me. I'm not trying to brag about how much I've traveled, but the point is-
Anil Lewis:
But it does feel good, doesn't it?
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah, it does.
Anil Lewis:
And we encourage everyone to try it.
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah, absolutely.
Anil Lewis:
You should try it, yeah.
Chris Danielsen:
Absolutely. Maybe at some point we'll do an episode about travel experiences.
Anil Lewis:
I sure hope so.
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah. But anyway, the thing about different size bills is that works really well if you have a good sampling of bills in your wallet.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, that's tricky, you might need a reference.
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah. But even then you're like standing there comparing them and that slows you down a little bit. So it's a little bit like, okay, I now have to figure out, is this bill longer than this bill or wider than this other bill? And is it as wide as this other one? Because that that's how they do it. The denominations are different lengths, but you have to have all the denominations to really compare. At least that's my experience. I mean, other people may feel like it's easier than that, but that wasn't my experience.
Anil Lewis:
If you did it more, I guess it would become more second nature. But I mean, it's not as distinguishable as you can tell the difference between a quarter and a nickel. Because a quarter has the ribbed edges, you know, you can tell the difference between a penny and a dime because the dime has those ribbed edges. But without that particular distinguishing characteristic, it would be difficult to tell the difference between a penny and a dime. So I don't know. I didn't evaluate as much to see whether the currency, the Euro, also had other distinguishing factors outside of just the size of the bill. But again, that that's part of the deliberation that would needed to take place in determining what would be done to make it more accessible.
Chris Danielsen:
Right.
Anil Lewis:
Chris, I think we'd be remiss if we didn't at least talk about how blind people access currency now in the United States. What tools do you use, Chris?
Chris Danielsen:
First of all, I should say that the Bureau of Engraving and Printing Department of the Treasury didn't do nothing after the court. They did not fail to do something is what I'm trying to say.
Anil Lewis:
Double Negative.
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah.
Anil Lewis:
The lawyer in you kicked in like, oops.
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah, exactly.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah. Nice.
Chris Danielsen:
They did not fail to act after the court decision. So they developed their own apps for the iPhone and for Android to identify currency. And they also have a program where you can get a free iBill bill identifier.
Anil Lewis:
Oh yeah.
Chris Danielsen:
If you are eligible for services from the Library of Congress, you can get this iBill and it's free. And this is a little device that you can put on a key chain and put in your pocket, and it will identify currency. You just slide the currency in a little slot. You don't have to slide it all the way in. It's not like loading it into a machine like you would with a change machine. You just have to touch it to this slot basically, and it will identify the currency. So I need to give that credit to the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, but actually I prefer an app that was developed actually in the Czech Republic, but it's called Cash Reader. And the really cool thing about Cash Reader is it can read all kinds of currency. It can read US, but it can also read currencies from all over the world.
Anil Lewis:
Nice.
Chris Danielsen:
So that's one solution that I use.
Anil Lewis:
So I moved to a place where I know technology allows everything, and I'm really falling in love with the Seeing AI app because it's free on iPhone and lookout for the Android platforms because it does the OCR and also does cash and some other things. So I love that. But even more so, I'm more dependent on the old traditional, non-technical ways of identifying currency. When I get my currency, I get it out of the ATM, which is accessible. It's usually in twenties. So I have a specific way that I fold my $20, and as I spend it down, I ask for the denomination when I get my change, okay, here's your change. $7. Okay, is this the five? At the point of sale, and they say, "yes." So I'll fold that in a particular way and I'll fold my singles in a particular way so that I'm able to identify the money that's in my wallet.
A lot of people say, "well, how do you trust the guy to make sure he's not just giving you three ones?" Okay, that's a degree of paranoia that's going to keep you up all night. If I was that suspect about it, I would turn to the person next to me who has no skin in this game and ask to verify, is this a five? There are ways to do it.
Chris Danielsen:
Well, the other thing about that is you can look at this in a couple of ways because obviously one of the concerns we had with the original court ruling was that we are perceived as vulnerable. But I mean, if you're standing in line at a store, just imagine what would happen if somebody behind you or next to you saw a cashier do that. I really think that somebody would say something. But the other thing is, I can remember once in my life, and I am [mubles on purpose] years old-
Anil Lewis:
But you look good, Chris, you look good.
Chris Danielsen:
Thank you. So do you.
Anil Lewis:
Thank you.
Chris Danielsen:
But I can remember once in my life maybe that I thought maybe somebody shortchanged me and I wasn't even sure then because I thought, well, maybe I just lost track, because that happens.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, sure.
Chris Danielsen:
It happens to sighted people too. But I do the same thing. I fold my money different ways. I have it identified, because it's really not practical to take out your phone and-
Anil Lewis:
At every instance that's correct.
Chris Danielsen:
Or your device and do it. Even though like the phone apps, you can set it so that it vibrates instead of announcing what the bills are, but you know, you have to learn those vibration patterns. And the other thing is you don't have that kind of time. So what I tend to do is I use those apps to sort money, because sometimes when you're in those cashier lines, and if they don't identify the bills for you and everybody's in a hurry or whatever, and you don't have time to identify them at the time, you'll just stuff them in your wallet. And then when you get home-
Anil Lewis:
Figure it out later.
Chris Danielsen:
I'll use Cash Reader. Or you'll use Seeing AI and figure out what you have and then sort it. Or you can do it with the assistance of a cited person later. So the point is, yeah, we use currency all the time and have been doing so for years, and if your eyesight is changing or you haven't learned this, or if you've been doing it for years you know this, but there are these techniques for handling your money so that you don't have this problem. All that said, here's the good news. It has taken the Bureau of Engraving and Printing a very long time to figure this out. And by the way, the National Federation of the Blind has helped. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing was at several of our conventions-
Anil Lewis:
Oh, yes.
Chris Danielsen:
When we were in person before, we've started to be in person again, but they were at several of our conventions and visited the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute several times to show us different tactile features that they were trying and say, "how do you feel about this? Can you feel this well? What do you think of it? What are the problems with it?"
So we've been involved in that process for years, but now it has officially been announced that the first bill, the first US note, as they actually call them, with a tactile feature, will come out in 2026. It will be a $10 bill.
Anil Lewis:
Wow.
Chris Danielsen:
Because what they're doing is they're incorporating new tactile features as they make other changes to the bills, which makes sense. And bills are periodically updated to prevent counterfeiting and to add security features and to do all of those things. So, they're going to roll these out. And I think, don't quote me on this, but I think the $50 bill will come out with a tactile feature in 2028 and the $20 bill will have a tactile feature in 2030. And I think they've determined that they'll just leave the $1 bill without a tactile feature because-
Anil Lewis:
If there's no tactile feature then it's a single.
Chris Danielsen:
Right.
Anil Lewis:
Make sure you don't have an old hundred-dollars bill though with no tactile.
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah, exactly.
Anil Lewis:
The thing that's interesting about all of this though, and I guess there's no right or wrong about it, but as you talked about these dates in the future, I mean more and more progressively we're moving to using more digital currency anyway. So balancing our work to make sure that currency is accessible, we also have to continue in a real way to make sure that the points of sale that people are using, I love the fact that I can walk up to a place and tap my card against something to make a purchase at more and more places, I don't necessarily need to have cash because I love the automatic processing of it, it gets a record of it, makes it easier for me to reconcile my finances, the whole deal.
So I want to make sure that we stay contemporary with the use of whatever the resources are being used for cash or monetary transactions. I know that we have to continue this good work of supporting the development of accessible currency, but I also know it's equally important for us to continue our work in making sure that digital currency and digital transactions are also accessible.
Chris Danielsen:
Another thing that's important about that is the contactless that you can do with your credit or debit card is great, but not every place has it yet. And I don't have a way of knowing. There's no non-visual way of knowing necessarily whether a given point of sale has it or where you're supposed to tap your card. So that may be an advocacy piece that we have to work on as well. And we have worked on accessible point of sale and all that kind of stuff. That's why points of sales, a lot of them still have tactile keypads because it's still necessary to enter your PIN in some cases. So we've got to continue that work. We've also got to make sure that blind people can get some money to spend.
Anil Lewis:
Amen, brother. Yes. (laughter)
Chris Danielsen:
And that's why we do all the advocacy around employment and around equal wages and around all the things that we do, because we need to have the money in our pockets in order to really worry about whether it's accessible or not.
Anil Lewis:
Accessible. Yeah. The true accessibility is making sure money is accessible to blind people's bank accounts. So I agree with you and that it's holistic. Just like I was saying earlier, I think that sometimes people miss the nuance that we as an organization capture, because it's not just what Chris Danielsen wants. It's not just what Anil Lewis wants. It's what the blind of the nation want. And we come together through the resolution process and through our everyday interaction. And we have our shared lived experiences that talk about, one, how do we deal with the problem that we're facing with the tools that we have, and then two, what can we do to change what exists to make it better for blind people? And we have to do that in a way that's responsible and does not portray us as victims and does not portray us as lesser or having less capacity. So those things all have to be taken into consideration if we want to make sure we maintain the respect and dignity that we demand as fully participating members of society.
Chris Danielsen:
I could not have said that any better Anil. And I thank you for that. And we're going to take a real quick break here for a little message, and then we're going to come back and tell you how you can tell us more about how you use money and what you think about accessible currency and other things.
Promo:
(Sounds of motor vehicles) Do you know that the National Federation of the Blind accepts vehicles? You and your friends and family can simply call 855-659-9314 or visit nfb.org/give. (Horn honks, vehicle sounds fade out)
Chris Danielsen:
Well, that's another one in the books. Anil or on the podcast thing, whatever we're going...
Anil Lewis:
In the bookkeeping.
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah, in the bookkeeping.
Anil Lewis:
Exactly. That's the best I could do with the money analogy. Yeah, that's it. That's all I got, Chris. (Laughter)
Chris Danielsen:
Okay. Well you did better than I did. But anyway, what do you think about this issue, everybody? Are you surprised by what we told you today? Do you still think we need to do more in this area or less in this area? How do you identify your money? Maybe you've thought of a way that nobody else has thought of, and what else do you think we should be addressing on the Nation's Blind podcast? Why don't you tell us about it?
Anil Lewis:
And it's truly important that you lend your voice to what we're talking about. So if you have an opinion, we want you to share it. A lot of people think that there is some secret place that the NFB goes to get information to come up with opinions, and there is, but it's not a secret place. We go to our members and we go to blind people. So with your feedback, maybe you have a different perspective that may change the trajectory of the advocacy work that we do in this space, but we don't know what we don't know. And we look forward to hearing your opinion. And again, as Chris said, if you have some new dynamic ways of accessing currency or getting access to any information in your life, we love getting that information, being able to amplify it not only on the podcast, but in the other areas that we communicate to blind people. So your voice is important to us, and we would really love to hear it from you.
Chris Danielsen:
That's right. So we are on social media. We are on Twitter @NFB_voice. We are on Facebook. You can just search for National Federation of the Blind, and we have a YouTube channel, although you can't give us feedback, but I guess you can leave comments on our YouTube videos.
Anil Lewis:
I think some of them, we have it. Yeah.
Chris Danielsen:
So we have all those ways, but there are some more old school ways of reaching us as well.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, you can use a device called the telephone, and it's not just for texting or looking up apps. You can actually dial a phone number, which would be 410-659-9314, extension 2444. You could also email us. That email address is podcast@nfb.org
Chris Danielsen:
That's right. So we really want to hear from you. We particularly, we haven't done this in a while, but it would be great if you would leave us a voicemail and let us know if you're okay with this. But if you leave us a voicemail, then we can actually put your voice on the Nation's Blind podcast. Wouldn't that be cool?
Anil Lewis:
That would be pretty cool.
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah. For our listeners' voices to be on the Nation's Blind podcast. But until our next episode when maybe we'll have some of that to share or maybe not. It all depends on you. But anyway, this is the Nation's Blind podcast. And remember, you can live the life you want.
Anil Lewis:
Blindness is not what holds you back.
Outro:
We'd love your feedback. Email podcast@nfb.org or call 410-659-9314, extension 2444.

This transcript was exported on Apr 20, 2023 - view latest version here.



nations_blind_podcast_currency_final (Completed  04/19/23)
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