Welcome to the ninth episode of Access On, the National Federation of the Blind's Technology podcast.
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Timestamps
The show is segmented by chapter, making it easy to move between segments of the podcast if you have an app or player that supports chapters. Below is what's on the show this week, and when you can hear it.
- Introduction 0:00
- Ed Potter dies 0:50
- To hear past episodes of Playback Magazine, you can check out the Playback magazine Archive
- Jonathan Mosen, Karl Belanger and Kennedy Zimnik discuss the National Federation of the Blind's Center of Excellence in Nonvisual Accessibility 4:33
- Ray-Ban Meta Smart Glasses 31:36
- Review of Ray-Ban Meta Smart Glasses 33:58
- Brit Box has no audio description 47:39
- Seeing AI barcode descriptions deteriorating 48:24
- Problems composing posts in Facebook for iOS 50:09
- Learning another language 52:00
- Accessible closed captions 53:39
- Switching software, now my job is less accessible 55:11
- Tech Tip, Paprika Recipe Manager 56:39
- Closing and contact info 58:33
Transcript
Speaker 1: Live life you want.
Speaker 2: Access on.
Jonathan Mosen: Welcome to another edition of Access On, the technology podcast of the National Federation of the Blind. This week we pay tribute to Ed Potter, former host of the popular audio Playback Magazine. Learn about the National Federation of the Blind's Center of Excellence in Nonvisual Accessibility. Some thoughts from owners of the Ray-Ban Meta smart glasses, including a comprehensive review. And in response to a listener question, other listeners comment on tools for teaching yourself a new language.
It's Jonathan Mosen. It's a pleasure to be back with you for another edition of Access On. But unfortunately, starting with some sad news and I want to thank David Goldfield for alerting us to this on Mastodon where there's been quite a bit of discussion about this. It's to mention the death of Ed Potter. Now, Ed Potter will be a name that is well-known in the United States in particular.
David Goldfield says on Mastodon before we had podcasts, Ed recorded Playback Magazine, which in many ways was quite similar to the work that you do with your podcasts today. He provided lists of toll-free numbers for ordering merchandise by phone and also provided listener-submitted reviews and demonstrations or products which were available at that time. Ed Potter, in that respect, was a true accessibility champion of his time.
While he clearly lived a long and full life, I am still sad, says David, to learn of his passing. But I'm grateful for his contributions to the blindness community. Ed was 92 when he died, so he had indeed lived a long life. According to his obituary, he was born in 1932 in Kelly, Bladen County, North Carolina, and Ed was the son of James Melvin Potter and Gertrude Squires Potter.
In 1935, the family moved to Wilmington, North Carolina where Ed spent much of his early life. Ed was a musician and an avid piano player. At 17, he began his radio career with Potter's Piano Ramblings, a 15-minute daily program on a Wilmington station, which featured his piano playing and commentary.
Ed graduated from the Governor Moorhead School for the Blind in 1952. In 1956, he graduated from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the first blind student in its apartment of radio, television, and motion pictures. For 13 years, Ed worked in radio at WWRZ in Clinton, WTSB in Lumberton, and WENC in Whiteville, North Carolina.
Ed completed a master's degree in speech communications at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill In 1973. He taught public speaking at Wayne Community College in Goldsboro, North Carolina, retiring in 1997. Ed enjoyed a large network of friends in the blind community. Beginning in 1979, he created Playback Magazine, Playback Underground and Coffee with Ed audio publications on cassette and message boards. These relied on content from listeners uniting his network of close friends with common interests.
From 1979 to 2007, Ed and Sue ran Playback Marketing, an audio catalogue for the visually impaired. It featured a tone indexing system that enabled listeners to shop independently. Ed is a great raconteur and has left a wonderful legacy. He will be remembered fondly. And if you want to hear Ed in his own words talking about his career, you can listen to an interview that Glen Gordon did with him. It's a fantastic interview as all of Glen's are on FSCast episode 190, that is the podcast of Freedom Scientific.
So, if you search for FSCast, all one word, and go to episode 190 among other things, you will hear that Ed Potter interview on that episode. If you have any memories you'd like to share of Playback Magazine and Ed Potter, you're welcome to get in touch, [email protected] is the email address. You can attach an audio clip to that email or write it down. That's accesson, all one word, @nfb.org.
I've mentioned in the last few episodes that Access On is coming to you from the Jernigan Institute and this is the heart of the National Federation of the Blind's national efforts. We are sitting right now in the conference room of the International Braille and Technology Center. And I'm joined by my colleagues at CENA, the Center of Excellence and Nonvisual Accessibility, Karl Belanger and Kennedy Zimnik, welcome to you both.
Kennedy Zimnik: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having us.
Jonathan Mosen: I thought that it would be good to just sit down and chat to you both because we are going to hear your voices increasingly on this podcast as we continue to give this more of an NFB flavor. So, let's begin by some introductions. Karl, you've been here the longest of all of us. When did you come to the Federation?
Karl Belanger: I came to the Federation in September of 2014 and just over the 10-year mark and I've definitely done and seen a lot while during my time here.
Jonathan Mosen: What brought you here? Were you involved in the Federation before you came here?
Karl Belanger: I really wasn't. I didn't grow up involved in any of the organizations in a significant way. I was sometimes involved in an event here or there, but I really hadn't been a part of any of the organizations on a consistent basis. And then what brought me here was actually the job. I was looking for accessibility work. I had done some contracting work in New England where I grew up and found the position, applied for it, and here I am.
Jonathan Mosen: Access technology has always been a big part of your life. Some people just have an aptitude for it and you've got that aptitude for it as something that's always interested you.
Karl Belanger: Yes. I remember getting our first computer back in the day, running some very old operating systems and I just took to it naturally and ...
Jonathan Mosen: So, what was that first computer?
Karl Belanger: It was a Packard Bell. I think it had something like a 60-megahertz processor and Windows 3.1 on it.
Jonathan Mosen: Oh, man.
Karl Belanger: So, quite old.
Jonathan Mosen: You don't go quite all the way back to the DOS days then?
Karl Belanger: Oh, I had plenty of experience with DOS. Windows 3.1 still use DOS for something, so plenty of games, interactive fiction, DOS command work, that type of stuff.
Jonathan Mosen: When did you get online for the first time?
Karl Belanger: Just gradually started using the internet as my parents got the internet first dial-up and then DSL and eventually cable.
Jonathan Mosen: There's nothing like that sound of a dial-up modem connecting the screech, the negotiation. It's a great. It makes me feel very nostalgic.
Kennedy Zimnik: Yeah. It really is a lost sound.
Karl Belanger: It kind of is.
Jonathan Mosen: Kennedy, will bring you in. You've been here a fairly long time as well, haven't you?
Kennedy Zimnik: Yep. About six years now. I'm in my seventh since 2018, which is crazy. It's been six years since 2018, but it has. I'm sighted myself, so my journey is a little bit different to the NFB. I've always been a techie ever since I was a kid and then I got to college, took a class for building web systems and websites for people with disabilities, specifically vision disabilities. Met Dr. Jonathan Lazar through that and then that's how I got my connection to the NFB. Saw an access tech job opened up and the rest is history.
Jonathan Mosen: How did you gain that understanding? I mean, it's quite a niche thing to become interested in, isn't it?
Kennedy Zimnik: Yeah. It really is. I mean, I've always liked tech that helps people and adaptive systems, accessible video games. Even back in college I was interested in. So, I've always been interested in technology and how it could help people live more independent lives even before I knew that was our tagline here at the NFB. I always thought technology could open doors for people and opportunities that weren't available before.
So, I think that's really what got me into it and then I found this niche and then I found out that the NFB was in Baltimore and I went to Towson, which is above Baltimore, in Baltimore. So, yeah, I thought it was a perfect home for me.
Jonathan Mosen: What is it that you enjoy about working not just in this space, in the access technology space, but I guess also specifically for the Federation and all that it stands for?
Kennedy Zimnik: Honestly, we're a membership-driven organization. I mean as everybody knows, just meeting people and learning about people's life stories and experiences, not only with technology but just with everything. National conventions you meet the most characters of all the characters you'll meet all year. So, I met some of the coolest people in this organization and I think it's really the people and outside of them being blind, just learning about their experiences and getting to meet new people is probably my favorite part, honestly.
Jonathan Mosen: Let's talk about what you're both doing here at the Jernigan Institute and that's evolved over time. The Center of Excellence in Nonvisual Accessibility was founded in 2014, but the International Braille and Technology Center goes way back. I remember going to an NFB convention my first actually in Chicago, it was in 1995 and Dr. Jernigan got up and talked about the International Braille and Technology Center and I thought, "Wow. This sounds like an absolute wonderland to me as a geek. It just sounds incredible."
And I remember going to see Dave Andrews I think was running it then and was very welcoming and there was just so much that was plugged in and humming. I mean in those days a lot of technology did whir and hum away because they had a lot of fans and stuff like that. And I hope that sometimes soon I still have this ambition to do a 3D tour of that, a 3D audio tour for Access On listeners, so we can go inside and just wander around a little bit. But Karl, do you want to talk to us a bit about the purpose of the IBTC and what it contains?
Karl Belanger: Sure. The IBTC is a showcase of the technology currently available that is accessible at any given time. So, earlier days, it started off with a lot of the notetakers, Braille embossers, computers with the screen readers and various software. And as technology has evolved, we've started incorporating more mainstream devices, Alexa devices, phones, tablets, the Meta smart glasses, various other things like that, that have accessibility built in.
One of the initial goals was to have one of everything for blindness technology. And with the extreme proliferation of technology these days, to have one of everything that a blind person could reasonably use, might not even fit in this building.
Kennedy Zimnik: Need a warehouse.
Jonathan Mosen: I remember Dr. Jernigan being so proud of the fact that we've got one of everything and that is amazing. But I guess it's also a testimony to the effectiveness of the NFB that there is now so much that's accessible largely thanks to our efforts that we can't fit it all in.
Kennedy Zimnik: Yeah.
Karl Belanger: Yes. And these days we still for the truly blindness centric things like magnifiers, Braille displays, Braille embossers, we do try to get a representative sample of most of the stuff that's out there, especially ones that have unique features or other capabilities that others may not, things like that.
Jonathan Mosen: And Kennedy, you have a particular interest in certain areas that I think are just fascinating. They're emerging, they could have a high impact, particularly the 3D printing and I wondered if you wanted to comment on 3D printing and what you think the impact on the blind community will be going forward.
Kennedy Zimnik: Sure. Tactile graphics have really come to the scene. Even over the past five years, they've really exploded and new technologies come out. Like you mentioned 3D prints give people the option to hold and touch things that nobody would ever be able to. We have a moon print. We have a Everest print. We have a skyscraper print.
So, these are all things, obviously, you wouldn't be able to hold in your hand and really feel the details for anybody. Especially for blind and low-vision users, it really gives them the opportunity to feel and get more of a sense of what a physical object looks like and what it feels like.
The 3D printer we have in the IBTC is a Bambu lab, Handy 3D printer. And they have an app that is somewhat usable. We're not calling it accessible, because there's plenty of rough edges around it. But Karl can attest a blind person is able to search. They have an online marketplace with free 3D prints that you can download and then print right in the app, so a blind person can search for a print, find it, select the filament or the plastic that you're going to use to print and then print away. And we, actually, have some 3D prints that have some Braille labels on them, too, so you can actually include Braille in your 3D print as well.
Jonathan Mosen: Monitoring the progress of a 3D print job is the challenge, isn't it? Because you can't touch while it's printing or you'll burn yourself?
Kennedy Zimnik: Right. Yeah. This app actually has the camera for people who can see the screen that you can get a sense of where the print is. Then they also have a progress bar with percentages, so that's how this app does it. Yeah. You're right. You're at the mercy of the print. And I think you can obviously stop the print if you see it stopped working. But if you wait till the end to stop the print and if something goes wrong, if there's a failure, then you have a mess inside the 3D printer, which hasn't happened to us yet. Knock on wood.
Jonathan Mosen: Karl, your interests, I guess are similar to mine in some respects. You're into the gadgets, the smartphones, that kind of stuff, computer things?
Karl Belanger: Yeah. Very much so. Whether it's new Braille displays or even just new headphones or I'm also a gamer. I do a lot with different computer games and finding ones that are accessible. Just general, like you said, gadget stuff.
Jonathan Mosen: How do blind people around the country benefit from the IBTC? What value do you think it adds?
Karl Belanger: I think it provides multiple opportunities in that it allows us to test and learn about the technologies to then review them and provide feedback to members who reach out to us. For those who are able to come to the IBTC, it allows them to get their hands on the technology and we're happy to show members who can get to the Baltimore area. If you want to come look at Braille displays or magnifiers, we're happy to show you.
And it just, generally, allows us in various forms to be aware of and current with the different pieces of technology to be able to really advise our members and also to advise the companies who make the technologies, how to make them more accessible.
Jonathan Mosen: That segues us nicely on to this whole question of Self-Advocacy. One of the questions I've had most since I've been here, the very short time compared to you guys that I've been here is it is frustrating to many people that they can't get past that first level of tech support, which is really designed to help people with very basic questions.
But when it comes to something like there is an accessibility defect in this product or software that I'm trying to use and I need somebody to take it seriously and get it fixed, that can be incredibly difficult. And one of the things that I think is really helpful is that when we collect this data, because we are the National Federation of the Blind and we've been around a long time and I think we are generally respected, we are able often to get past that first level in a way that can be difficult for many to do.
We're having regular catch-ups with pretty much all the big names in technology. There may be one or two where we want to build on those relationships. But that building is happening right now. So, there are two things we have that I think are helpful for this conversation. One is providing people with the tools to make their own contact and couch the language in a way that resonates with those who might receive the communication.
Because if you just write to somebody and say, "I tried to use this and it doesn't work," that doesn't give anybody anything to go on. So, there's the Self-Advocacy side and then we are collecting data from people so that when we do have these meetings with big tech or smaller tech, we have good quality data from members or from blind people around the country to go on. So, Karl, could you talk us through the Self-Advocacy Toolkit, then we'll move on and talk about the bug report form, but Self-Advocacy first. What's involved? What do we offer?
Karl Belanger: The Self-Advocacy Toolkit is really designed so that as you as a blind user of whatever product, be it a website, an app or anything, if you come across accessibility issues, the toolkit really equips you to know what to say, how to say it, and whom to try to reach out to at these companies, be it a small app developer or a big multinational tech corporation to try to engage them on the accessibility of their products.
And it takes you through things like what information do you need? This would be things like screen reader version, operating system version. If you're on a website, on a computer, what browser you're using? And then it talks through how to report the issue in a way that is useful. As Jonathan mentioned, just saying, "Oh, this doesn't work, doesn't really help much." But if you can tell them on your page two of your application, the second, third, and fourth fields, when I tap to them, my screen reader doesn't read what they are and just says, "Edit, edit, edit."
Even though you may not have the exact words for the technical issue of what's going on, that's going to tell the developer very closely, "Okay. It's on this page. It has these fields and a screen reader is reading this." So, it gives them ammunition that they can use to go find what might be wrong there and try to fix it in their site.
Once we've gone through how to structure the report, talking about what is happening, if you're aware of it, what should be happening, we recommend adding some resources. If you're on an iOS app, you might add the Apple developer accessibility resources, same for Android or Windows, things like that. We also give some pointers on what not to do.
As frustrating as it can be sometimes dealing with an accessibility issue that prevents you from doing something you urgently need to do, there are still ways you need to approach this for best results. Letting your anger maybe cool a bit before you email the company, not mentioning legal things or getting lawyers involved.
Jonathan Mosen: That is interesting actually, because what often happens if you push that button too early is that the email that you send gets transferred to the legal department if they detect there's anything legal. So, you may actually, if you go too early with that strategy, be bypassing a remedy for getting it fixed, because you're going to miss the software developers, the coders, and go to the lawyers straight away.
Karl Belanger: Right. And that can really be too detriment of trying to get an issue fixed. After that, we talk about where to send the email or letter or what have you. Sometimes it is necessary to just send to the generic info at or support at and there isn't a better option. Sometime there is an accessibility option. Sometimes you can find a webmaster or web at company, various things like that or specific people.
And then if you've tried the basic one, emails or contact forms and you're not getting anywhere, raising the issue on social media and getting other members of the community to report the issue as well. If you have friends that are using the app that are experiencing issues or contacts on social media or in your workplace that are having the same issue with the app, encourage them to report as well, because companies will generally react quicker to more reports of an issue.
And the more people who say, "Hey. This is a problem. We can't do this," the higher up on their list it's likely to go. But also, as Jonathan mentioned, we do have the inaccessibility tracker form, which is really for if you're at any stage of the process, if there's an issue that is impacting you, we'd love to hear about it so we can track trends and what the issue is and know what our users and members are facing.
Jonathan Mosen: Kennedy, the inaccessibility tracker form, what does that contain and where does it go if members and non-members for that matter, although we hope you will become one, take the time to complete that form.
Kennedy Zimnik: Yeah. So, this is just an internal form for us to track trends on inaccessible systems. This could be software or hardware. If we see five people report Product A for being inaccessible in its signup process or something like that, then we know that there is a trend in that inaccessibility and we might be interested in testing it ourselves or reaching out to the company, whatever goes from there.
Jonathan Mosen: And it certainly helps us to cement those relationships because then we can reach out and we can say, "Here are some of your actual customers or wannabe customers who are experiencing this and maybe we can get together and form a bit of a relationship that can be mutually beneficial." And that's often how we can get a foot in the door and build those relationships with the companies.
Kennedy Zimnik: Yeah. And like you say, money talks. So, I would like to buy this product or I'm experiencing this with this product, I want to buy this on your website, but I can't because of this. So, now, I won't be using your product anymore and you won't be getting any money from me. So, money talks and even though it is the right thing to do to make things accessible, that's not always what companies see it as. So, the bottom line does talk.
Jonathan Mosen: Yeah. Money does talk. Mine seems to be saying goodbye at the moment. But so, there is so much to see now as I sit here thinking what should we highlight? There are so many things we could talk about and we probably can't talk about them all today, so we'll come back at another time. But I did want to particularly focus on some aspects of this public-private partnership that we enjoy with the state of Maryland. And this is the Nonvisual Accessibility Initiative.
It is funded by a grant from the state of Maryland, and there are many aspects to this and we'll go through just some of them. Obviously, one that will be of interest to Access On listeners anywhere is that we are offering boutiques and longer-length webinars on a range of topics. Perhaps one of you can tell me a little bit about those boutiques, the kind of things you choose to cover?
Kennedy Zimnik: Yeah. Our boutiques are hour and a half training sessions that we offer to anybody that would like to join. They're over Zoom. And by the way, we should have mentioned this. All of these links are at nfb.org/cena, slash, C-E-N-A. You can read about everything and the Self-Advocacy Toolkit is part of that as well. But anyway, the boutiques, like I said, are monthly hour and a half trainings. Usually, we try and get them on the last Tuesday of every month and they are accessibility training topics that we try and identify at the beginning of the year that the community would be interested in.
So, we actually have a boutique coming up in a couple of weeks, our document accessibility boutique. This is just one of our hour and a half training, so it's one of our boutiques. But Jonathan also mentioned our longer form half-day seminars. So, these half-day seminars start at 1:00 in the afternoon and go until 5:00. They're usually the middle Wednesday of every month, but these change more often, so just check the date. And these are longer form accessibility topics that we'll talk about for four hours.
So, for example, our most recent one was our accessible device showcase in December. This highlighted accessible devices that came out in 2024 or close to 2024, and we did an overview of all these really cool gadgets, video games, accessible devices, we talked about the Meta glasses, all sorts of things. So, that was one of our half-day seminars. And then we have a couple more half-day seminars coming up that you'll have to read about at nfb.org/cena if you're interested.
Jonathan Mosen: And the one that I really enjoyed delivering recently was on teaching sighted friends and family members about screen reading, the basics of screen reading so that they can perhaps assist somebody who may not be eligible for training. And actually, we're seeing this a little bit at the moment. There are people who just fall through the system that they're not eligible for funding for training, because maybe they're senior and they don't have vocational aspirations and where they are, nobody is available to help.
And when a friend or a family member who has a little bit of technical proficiency chooses to require some screen reader knowledge, that can be life-changing. Do you want to comment on the webinars at all, Karl?
Karl Belanger: I think some of them, like the one Jonathan mentioned about teaching screen readers, can be very interesting. We also do ones on web accessibility. We mentioned the toolkit earlier. There is a webinar posted that we did previously on the toolkit page where I walked through some of the steps of the toolkit as if I was reporting a website issue. And there's just a lot of cool topics out there, a lot of interesting tidbits, things that we do cover, so definitely recommend checking those out.
Jonathan Mosen: We also have many other aspects to the Nonvisual Accessibility Initiative program including promoting smart cities, education, employment and other things as well. This whole question of the smart cities is a fascinating area because there is so much going on in terms of particularly indoor wayfinding, perhaps specific spaces like railway stations, things like that. This is a very hot space and the Federation's keeping an eye on this and monitoring it and evaluating it.
Karl Belanger: Indoor navigation, the whole smart city space in general is a very fascinating, very fast-moving space. You have a number of companies working on various indoor space navigation tools, which can each have their own challenges and benefits and drawbacks. Autonomous vehicles is another aspect of the self-driving cars and taxis and trucks and informational kiosks and other kiosks in public spaces, making sure that those are accessible. There's a whole variety of different areas in the smart cities space that are very actively in development and moving very quickly.
Jonathan Mosen: So, there is a lot going on here at CENA that we could talk about at length, but you can find out a lot more on the CENA homepage at nfb.org/cena and we'll have lots more to say in the coming Access On episodes. We've got some specific things. I want, for example, to sit down and have a chat about the state of smartphones right now. People took a snapshot sometimes two or three years ago and that snapshot is now out-of-date, because technology moves so quickly.
And that's the thing, isn't it? I think that's one of the value-adds that this service offers or that this department offers is that the technology landscape changes so quickly. I mean just two- and a-bit years ago nobody had heard of ChatGPT. It just moves so quickly and there's so much change.
Kennedy Zimnik: Speaking of AI, that is a very interesting topic that we have a couple boutiques planned for including how to write an AI prompt, which is very interesting that I'm excited for.
Jonathan Mosen: Yes. And we've done some previous stuff on AI, too, correct?
Karl Belanger: Yes, we have.
Jonathan Mosen: Is there anything you wanted to add before we go?
Kennedy Zimnik: We mentioned the IBTC, International Braille and Technology Center. If anybody's interested in taking a tour, please reach out to us. If you want to see something specific, please let us know and we can tell you if we have it and you can come check it out and we can go from there.
Karl Belanger: Yeah. And even if you're not in the Baltimore area, aren't able to get to the IBTC, if you have questions about what Braille display should I use or what magnifier or which smartphone is better for my specific use case or anything like that, you can call us and choose option five from the main menu. That's 410-659-9314, option five, or email [email protected]. I will note, we are not tech support. If your JAWS is misbehaving or your notetaker has Braille cell issues, you're going to need to contact the manufacturer.
Jonathan Mosen: Yeah. I think the thing to emphasize, too, is that there are so many places where there is a bias. I remember, and you may remember this, Karl, when JAWS and Window-Eyes were duking it out, you would find that certain states or certain agencies where JAWS or Window-Eyes and that's what they recommended because that's what they were personally comfortable with. And it didn't really matter what product might be best suited to your particular use case for the job you were doing or what you wanted to do.
So, it's not our job to tell you that this thing is the best, but what we will tell you is here are the pros and cons. We will take time to try and find out what do you want to use this thing for? How will you personally use it on a daily basis? And based on our detailed knowledge of the products, we may be able to say, "Well, this particular feature may be useful for what you want to do," but we're never going to tell you that this is the best anything.
Karl Belanger: Right. And I come across that so often. We do tours of the IBTC for various groups. And I'll often get questions like, "What's the best Braille display? What's the best magnifier?" And we're upfront that the best one is the one with the feature set and the price that works best for you. For a Braille display, for example, how many cells do you want? Do you care about WiFi connectivity? Do you need text-to-speech? All those types of questions, we'll talk you through and help you figure out what might be the best thing for you.
Preston Gaylor: Hello, Jonathan. This is Preston Gaylor chiming in. I'm with the Jigsaw Chapter of the National Federation of Blind Pennsylvania coming to you from Stewartstown, Southern York County about 40 minutes away, at least an hour out from the NFB headquarters. So, definitely welcome to the states and congrats on your new growing podcast. I'm very much enjoying it. And of course, I have followed your work off and on over the past 20 or so years, but I've been in a tech freak and a radio freak, I guess you can say. I still am.
But anyway, I'm talking to you on my new Meta Ray-Ban smart glasses. I told Santa, aka my mom or her boyfriend, why I needed them and what good tools that they are for us. And I actually got a chance to test drive them at our most recent state convention here in November. So, I'm enjoying them. I have scanned some QR codes, I have read my texts, I have took photos of Christmas cards, I have used the Look feature, and all that. But I wanted to get a general idea of what's your favorite features out of them and maybe listeners can pitch in as well.
Jonathan Mosen: Thanks for sending that audio attachment into us, Preston. And the audio from the Ray-Ban Meta smart glasses isn't too bad at all, is it? And when you're making calls on them doing things of that kind, it's pretty impressive. It would be nice to see them adding an audio-only recording feature. Because at the moment, the only way you can record directly on the glasses is by making a video recording, which can be a maximum of three minutes in length. If you want to change that in the Meta View app, which you run on your smartphone to configure the glasses.
So, an audio-only recording would take up a lot less space, a lot less bandwidth, and it would be really great to see for people like us. But I think you've covered the bases there, Preston, in terms of the features that many blind people are using, the Ray-Ban Meta smart glasses for. If there are other things that people are using them for and you'd like to comment, do be in touch, [email protected]. We always enjoy getting feedback on the way that people are using these products.
Mary West: Hi, Jonathan. First off, I'd like to thank you very much for your Living Blindfully podcast as well as for the new one that you're doing now, Access On. You're an excellent podcaster. Keep up the good work. Next, in response to your invitation for people to contact you about their experiences with Ray-Ban glasses, I decided to write an essay about my week-long experience with them. So, here it is. I hope that it will help someone who is either seeking more information or thinking about purchasing the Ray-Ban Meta glasses.
Beginning November 12th, 2024, I participated in a week-long study conducted by Clinilabs. The purpose was to assess the usefulness of Ray-Ban Meta smart glasses for individuals with visual impairments. By test was simple. Perform five daily activities while using the glasses. This experience provided valuable insights into the potential and limitations of this technology.
Initial setup and first impressions. Setting up the glasses requires downloading, updating, and configuring the Meta View app. The app guides you through the process. It is also necessary to connect the glasses to your phone using Bluetooth. Thankfully, the app itself is fully accessible. To get myself familiar with the glasses, I practiced by using commands like, "Hey, Meta, look and tell me what's ahead of me." And "Hey, Meta, look and tell me what you see to explore my apartment." Meta provided accurate descriptions of the rooms and their contents.
Reading my mail immediately highlighted a key challenge, Meta's tendency to summarize. While convenient for quick browsing, it became frustrating when I needed the full text read despite giving various commands like, "Hey. Meta, read the complete document. Hey. Meta, read the document from top to bottom," and "Hey. Meta, read the full document." The results were inconsistent.
Sometimes the entire page was read while at other times only a summary was provided. This inconsistency in command interpretation was a recurring theme. However, when I asked Meta, "Look at this envelope and tell me who it's from," the AI was able to accomplish this task consistently. My next task involved browsing a Blair Clothing catalog. Again, Meta preferred summarizing pages.
While useful for rapid scanning, it proved inadequate when I wanted detailed information about a specific item including pricing. However, Meta excelled at handling QR codes. When prompted to take a picture of a QR code in the catalog, the corresponding link was seamlessly sent to the Meta View app. When I double tapped the link, the relevant webpage in the online Blair catalog was opened. This functionality was very impressive. Meta read labels on canned and boxed food items quickly and accurately.
A deeper dive art and conversation. To further test Meta's capabilities, I used it while working on a beach scene art project. Meta correctly identified the subject matter. And when asked, even offered constructive feedback suggesting I add more shells for balance. After implementing this suggestion, when asked, Meta confirmed the improvement and provided a detailed description of the artwork. I even sought advice on whether I should attach yellow or clear Swarovski crystals to the sun's rays.
Meta's suggestion of clear crystals was later validated by my art teacher. Conversing with Meta felt like interacting with a very intelligent friend. Asking about Van Gogh yielded accurate biographical details, including his birth and death dates, his close relationship with his brother, Theo, and the fact that Theo's first wife compiled a book of Vincent's letters after his death.
Similarly, a request to describe Stonehenge to a blind person resulted in a detailed description of the stone circle, its dimensions, the fact that the stones are of different heights, the highest being 9 feet tall and the prevailing scientific theories about its purpose. World-world scenarios and environmental awareness. Meta demonstrated a strong ability to describe various scenes. It accurately depicted a busy street "with people, cars, traffic, and buildings across the street."
In a natural setting, Meta noted the varying states of the trees, some bare, some with leaves and identified some trees as oaks. Meta was able to see beyond the trees and read signage on distant buildings. When approaching a lake, Meta initially described it as a body of water, perhaps a river or a lake in the distance, refining its description to lake as I got closer.
While Meta could identify the presence of chairs near the lake, it could not provide usable instructions on how to locate them. Meta described the lake as "a calm lake with ducks swimming in it." I asked Meta if the scene would make a nice picture. The AI said, "Yes." Connecting with human assistance. The integration with Be My Eyes was flawless.
After using the command, "Hey, Meta, be my eyes," the connection was established immediately with very understandable audio from the volunteers. They could see clearly through the glasses and provided helpful descriptions of my surroundings, even assisting in locating a dropped apple.
Practical applications and limitations. Meta proved useful for identifying stains on clothing, determining clothing colors, and matching outfits. The AI identified vehicles in a parking lot. However, while it initially located a bus, it lost track of it as I approached. Meta is not designed to provide detailed descriptions of people making it unsuitable for locating individuals in a crowd.
Entertainment, communication, and retail experiences. The glasses can integrate with Apple Music, Spotify and Amazon Music offering excellent sound quality. Meta also facilitates calls and messages through WhatsApp and Messenger. Using Messenger requires a Facebook account. A visit to a convenience store highlighted Meta's retail potential. It's summarized cooler contents.
When I asked, "Hey, Meta, tell me the brands and what items are here." The AI identified brands and flavors. Meta even provided directional guidance to specific items on shelves, although this guidance wasn't always accurate. In the hot food section, Meta identified the types of dishes, beef, pork, chicken, but couldn't name them due to lack of store labeling. However, the AI was able to identify the soups available because their containers were labeled.
It accurately described the deli counters, contents behind the glass, ham, roast beef, various cheeses, lettuce, tomato, mayonnaise, mustard, et cetera. Read labels on ready-made sandwiches and even described the coffee-making equipment behind the counter. Near the store's entrance, Meta read the names of various chocolate bars displayed on a shelf.
At a restaurant, Meta read the menu though it initially defaulted to summarizing it. There are dinners that range in price from 20 dollars to 35 dollars. While it eventually read the dinner selections after prodding from me, it still omitted the prices. However, Meta accurately read the check allowing me to pay without sighted assistance, a significant benefit. Meta is able to identify currency.
Conclusion and recommendations. My week with the Ray-Ban Meta glasses was a positive and insightful experience. While not a replacement for traditional mobility aids like canes or guide dogs, it cannot detect curbs, overhangs, or provide reliable navigation. Meta offers significant potential in other ways.
Key observations and recommendations include, one, mobility. Meta is not a mobility aid. It could be dangerous to use the glasses to replace a guide dog or cane. Improvements are needed in spatial awareness to be helpful in locating nearby objects such as chairs. Meta does not have directional accuracy. At times, it got its left and right confused.
Two, description and context. Meta excels at describing scenes and objects, especially in retail settings. The tendency to summarize should be optional with do not summarize and describe in detail settings within the Meta View app. Three, people Identification, allowing more detailed descriptions of people perhaps with user uploaded photos for recognition would be a valuable addition for people with visual impairments. Perhaps detailed descriptions of people could be turned on automatically if the Meta View app determines that the glasses are being worn by someone using a screen reader.
Four, Meta proved highly useful for various tasks including identifying packaged food items, matching clothing, detecting stains, describing scenes, reading checks, reading mail, browsing catalogs, reading QR codes, identifying money, and describing retail environments. Combined with Be My Eyes, it offers an affordable option for sighted assistance, though caution is advised when sharing sensitive information with volunteers. My experience was so positive that I now own a pair of Ray-Ban Meta glasses and use them on a regular basis.
Jonathan Mosen: Thank very much for that, Mary. That's Mary West sending in such a comprehensive review of the Ray-Ban Meta smart glasses, which I'm sure many will find helpful. Great stuff. Let's go to Australia for this next email, which comes from Marvin Hunkin and he says, "Hi, Jonathan. One of the big streaming services, BritBox, does not have audio description as a service on their platform. Maybe the NFB can investigate. When I did contact them last year in Australia, they said they may put it on as a future requirement and pass them on to the development team."
They're based in the UK. Thanks for that, Marvin. It does seem curious because there's so much audio described content on the UK if you use those services from their original source such as the BBC and ITV. So, perhaps there's some rights issue involved here, but very unfortunate if that's the case. We'll make a note of that one, Marvin. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
Here's Melissa Kane with this email. She says, "I have been using the Seeing AI app for years now. Previously, it wasn't great with barcodes on products that weren't name brand. However, a year or so ago, it became really useful and I used it all the time. However, with the most recent update, I have been having trouble with it being specific. For instance, I scanned a can of pinto beans and it just said beans. It did not specify what type of beans."
"Then a couple of days ago, I scanned a box of stuffing mix and it only gave the name of the store not anything about what the product was. I reported both instances to Microsoft. I'm wondering if anybody else has been seeing this behavior. And if so, it may be something that the NFB could chat with them about." Thank you very much for writing in Melissa. Indeed, we can do that. We did contact the product manager at Seeing AI, who was very quick to respond, says that he has found the messages that you sent into Microsoft about this topic.
They are investigating to see if there's anything they can do on their side to improve this in a future release. So, watch this space and we are glad to make that connection. I should also report back, speaking of making connections on the fact that Asia wrote in and we read her message a couple of episodes ago with respect to the job that she got that she was having trouble doing because of some problems with Microsoft bookings.
We took this one to Microsoft. Microsoft allocated an expert to work with Asia on this. And I understand they have met via conference call. They're continuing to work on the issue. So, thanks to Microsoft for being so willing to cooperate and it's good that we were able to make that connection. Now, an email from Marinella who says, "Hi, Jonathan. I have been enjoying your podcast so far and would be recommending it to any of my students that I would teach the Victor Reader Stream to that may ask about any assistive technology-related podcasts, especially the ones aspiring to be AT instructors."
I remember on one of your episodes you talked about Facebook inaccessibility and I have noticed something and that deals with the use of a Braille display. I tend to connect my Chameleon to my phone while at home and have noticed that while trying to compose a new post and go to the edit field where it says "What's on your mind?" When I double tap on it shows up in the edit field and I can't delete it.
I am typing in it. I even have issues trying to put my insertion point at the end, and it still goes into the middle of the phrase. Not sure if it happens to other listeners that may use a different display. But it is annoying and I find it better to type a post with a Braille display than dictate it. Keep up the great work.
Yes. I have seen this one myself. This is one that we are also talking to Meta about and have sent them a video. It is very irritating, but the interesting thing is it doesn't seem to be universal and it doesn't seem to be consistent. So, I've certainly seen the bug where you can type in places and you just get nothing back whatsoever.
And then I've seen another version of the bug where you can type, but it's making a clicking noise like you're entering a password. So, there are various variations on this theme, but the bottom line is that while Facebook for iOS is a lot more manageable than Facebook on the Windows desktop right now, there are some significant regressions that have crept in. We are communicating those to Meta.
Tiffany: Hi, Jonathan. It's Tiffany from Kentucky. You might remember me. I don't know. I used to email occasionally for the Living Blindfully podcast and I would occasionally send in comments. Congratulations on the new podcast, by the way. I wanted to give my thoughts on accessible language learning. I know that's something someone had asked about.
For the last four years, I've been teaching myself German off and on. And I've been using an app in the App Store. It shows up as Innovative, and I think it says Innovative 1-on-1 Languages or something like that. That is primarily audio-based. So, it's almost like a lesson in the form of a podcast is the easiest way I could describe it, and that's worked out well for me. They offer several languages, including German, which is the one I'm learning, of course. I'm not sure what else they offer, but they have a whole slew of them on there.
Duolingo is technically accessible. But personally, I found it very frustrating to use, and as soon as I found something that worked better, I ditched it. But yeah, that's just my comments. And again, congratulations on the podcast and happy new year.
Jonathan Mosen: Happy New Year to you as well. Tiffany, thank you for writing in on the subject, which was raised by a listener. That was Nancy actually a couple of episodes ago. Bonnie Rozino is also contributing on this and says, "Hi, Jonathan. Always enjoy your podcast and I'm enjoying your new one as well." Thanks so much, Bonnie. "Duolingo's iPhone app is pretty accessible. I use it with Braille as well and it works. There was a bit of time where there was some slowness in iOS 18, but that is also improving. Hope this helps your listeners." Thank you very much, Bonnie. Appreciate that.
Rick Roderick is writing in from Louisville, Kentucky. He says, "Jonathan, your program on the small recorder got me thinking about a concern I've had for a few years. I'm totally blind and wear a cochlear implant processor in one ear and a hearing aid in the other. In meetings, I often have trouble hearing some of the participants. I'm wondering if a device exists that can convert a meeting into ASCII, that can be shown on a Braille display."
"Also, I can understand speech on most of the TV shows I watch, but I sometimes have trouble with movies, especially when background music and/or other sounds are present. I would like to use closed captions, but they are fleeting and the process for following them on a Braille display is difficult. Is a method of reading captions available that can handle this problem or is it an issue that needs to be worked on?"
Rick, I am not aware of any other way of reading captions other than the one that I have seen on iPhone, which is quite easy to enable. Whereas the dialogue goes on, it scrolls by on your Braille display and that does require you to be a pretty fast Braille reader, so I can understand that sometimes it may just scroll too quickly. Google are doing some very interesting things in this space as well with Live Transcription where you can put your phone in the center of a meeting room table, for example. You may have a Braille display connected to that phone and it is transcribing in real-time for you.
Irene is writing in with this one. She says, "Thank you for your podcast, which I recently discovered. I work for a Catholic Church in a position I have had for three decades. Several months ago, the parish began using Flocknote as its communication tool. Prior to this, we had used Mailchimp on a very limited basis. As far as I can tell, neither tool can be used with a screen reader, both require the use of a mouse."
"With the adoption of Flocknote, we are using it for all communication with parishioners. This puts me at a severe disadvantage in communicating. The pastor is doing cuts to staff. I'm afraid that this will be held against me. Is there any communication program, for example, Mailchimp, Constant Contact, et cetera, that is accessible? We have also moved to a new database platform, Ministry platform, which is not accessible. Previously, we were working in Microsoft Access, which I could navigate. Thank you for any information."
Irene, I'm sorry to hear that. That must be deeply distressing. I don't know of these products or whether there are any alternatives. But I know that there are people who are listening who are very much into the marketing. That's the thing that Mailchimp is regularly used for. So, at least on that score, we may have some people with a lot of information about accessible alternatives. [email protected], if you'd like to be in touch and help Irene out with this one.
It's time for another tech tip and a reminder that we're always looking for these tech tips. If you've got something handy you want to share with the Access On audience, drop me an email, put tech tip in the subject line, send it to [email protected]. You could record it in audio if you want, or you can just write it down like Karen Anderson has done.
She says, "Hey, Jonathan. I'm writing in from our greater Baltimore chapter. First, I want to say I've really enjoyed Access On. As someone who has gotten out of the habit of listening to podcasts, this is one I actively search out every week. As someone who loves to cook and bake, I'm always looking for new recipes. I'm also not the most patient person, so waiting for ads to load and having my screen focus move around while I'm looking at a recipe on my phone is incredibly frustrating for me."
"Someone recommended Paprika, that's P-A-P-R-I-K-A recipe manager to me, and I love it. You can import recipes directly from a website and the app pulls out the ingredients and instructions and gets rid of any ads or other material you don't need. You can also categorize recipes. So, if I'm looking for a sourdough recipe, I don't have to look through all my dinner recipes to find the one bread recipe I want."
"The iOS app is accessible. But unfortunately, last time I checked the Windows app isn't. And when I wrote to them, they said they have no plans to make it accessible, which was disappointing. Even so, this is one of the apps I use most often in my downtime and thought it might be helpful to others." Thank you very much for sharing that, Karen. It kind of sounds a bit like the trippet of recipes. And we were talking about trippet in the tech tip section last week.
That concludes this episode of Access On, the technology podcast of the National Federation of the Blind. To send in a contribution for a future episode, email us. Attach an audio clip or just write it down and send it to [email protected]. That's [email protected]. To keep up to date with Access On, follow us on Mastodon, [email protected]. That's [email protected] on Mastodon.
To subscribe to an announcement-only email list about upcoming episodes, send a blank message to [email protected]. That's [email protected]. To learn more about the National Federation of the Blind, visit our website, nfb.org or phone us 410-659-9314. That's 410-659-9314, and be sure to check out the Nation's Blind podcast right from where you heard this podcast.