Announcer: Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast, presented by the National Federation of the Blind, the transformative membership and advocacy organization of blind Americans. Live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono: Hello and welcome to the Nation's Blind podcast. I am Melissa Riccobono and I am here with not one, not two, but three other fantastic people today. First of all, let's get the co-host in. Hello co-host, why don't you introduce yourself?
Anil Lewis: My name is Anil. Anil Lewis. I'm glad to be here, Melissa.
Melissa Riccobono: I'm glad that you're here, Anil.
Anil Lewis: I'm loving this topic we're going to discuss today.
Melissa Riccobono: I'm excited about this topic. Which one of the lovely ladies would you like to introduce?
Anil Lewis: Let's go alphabetically.
Melissa Riccobono: Okay.
Anil Lewis: Let's go with Danielle McCann.
Melissa Riccobono: Hello, Danielle. How are you?
Danielle McCann: Hello. I'm great. I'm great. How are y'all?
Melissa Riccobono: Doing well.
Anil Lewis: Now you're going to introduce our second guest?
Melissa Riccobono: So, our other lovely lady is Nikki Jackson. Hello,
Nikki. How are you?
Nikki Jackson: Hi you all, I’m doing well. How are you both?
Melissa Riccobono: Doing great.
Anil Lewis: Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono: Well, you know, we are talking about some things. Not really about beauty, I guess, but we are talking about representation, certainly, pop culture and media and how blind people are and have been represented. And so, we're going to start
out more broadly with TV shows, movies, things that people want to talk about, about blind people being represented. And then we're going to go into the cool topic of blind Barbie. Blind Barbie, yay or nay, or both?
Anil Lewis: Great topic.
Melissa Riccobono: And so I I think I'm very excited about this. And so Anil, I know you had a movie you wanted to talk about, so why don't we start with yours?
Anil Lewis: Ohh, yeah, that's that's how I wanted to start on the top. I love that my blind movie is Scent of a Woman with Al Pacino. He's just a phenomenal actor and I know there's positives and negatives about it, but just the framework is a retired military guy who goes blind and I forget whether it's his grandson or or just a stranger, young kid who's a student who needs to get some community service for what he did, meets this blind retired military official and I just love the fact that he's very adamant about demanding that he be treated in a certain way, meaning Al Pacino, the blind guy.
And it wasn't, you know, the pity and when the when the young man tried to express a little bit of pity or whatever, you know, it really was met with a more direct positive identity of who he was even though he was really struggling with his blindness. It's a really complicated, in my opinion, movie if you really evaluate the emotions and that kind of thing. But it's a really wonderful ending, which I won't spoil for you. But that that was the one that first came to mind. Therewere many others, but that was the one that came to mind.
Melissa Riccobono: Now two things about that movie, is that where he calls Jack Daniels, John Daniels because they're such good friends? Is that the movie?
Anil Lewis: It may be? I haven't seen in a very long time and I could see that happening. Yes.
Melissa Riccobono: I just got this flicker because it's been a very long time for me as well. And I do remember and and I love what you said Anil about it being complicated because blindness is and can be complicated. Right. It's not generally you go blind or you're born blind and you're all happy or you're all miserable. I mean, I think there's a process that we all go through and especially if you go blind later in life and we're very used to being in charge and powerful and using your vision a lot. I mean, being in the military, that's kind of all about in some ways, good or bad, what you can see or looking out for your guys or your women.
Anil Lewis: Definitely establish an identity based on all of that. Yeah, absolutely.
Melissa Riccobono: Yeah. And, and so I get that. But the thing that did drive me nuts when I did see the movie and I just rolled my eyes, was there is, of course a scene and there's another movie called Sneakers, which is about a blind guy that helps detectives.
Anil Lewis: Little tech guy. Yeah, the blind guy's really a tech.
Melissa Riccobono: But both of those movies, they have to have a scene where the blind person’s drive in the car.
Anil Lewis: Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono: And that just sort of I was like, “Really, did you have to go there? All the things you could have them do.”
Anil Lewis: I love it.
Melissa Riccobono: And I know you liked it. I don't.
Anil Lewis: Yeah. Because I mean, I, I know I have a lot of blind friends. That's their big thing. They've driven. They've had that little sighted, you know, copilot and that kind of thing. Look at it this way, Melissa, these movies prophesied blind people driving. Look where
we are. Look, see! (Laughing)
Melissa Riccobono: Okay, Okay, that's fair. That's fair. Nikki, how about you?
Anil Lewis: Ohh. You want to go to Nikki? Okay.
Melissa Riccobono: I'm going to Nikki. You know what about you? What is your movie that you want to talk about or TV show? Or do you have a couple? Lay it on us.
Nikki Jackson: Well, first of all, let me just say I am one of those blind people who had the opportunity to drive. So I had my sighted for pilot, okay. Next to me was my cousin who said, “Get in the car, we're going for a drive.” And I was, who was I to say no we're not.
Melissa Riccobono: Okay here's the deal quickly. I have also driven. I didn't drive like in some high stakes. I mean, I think the Sneakers was like they were trying to escape and the blind guy’s driving and I can’t remember Scent of a Woman, it seems like…
Anil Lewis: The blind guy was driving to the rescue.
Melissa Riccobono: Oh, to the rescue. Was that what it was?
Anil Lewis: Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono: Like Scent of Woman, wasn't he driving really fast?
Anil Lewis: Yes.
Melissa Riccobono: That's the part that I'm like, hmm, I mean, I drove too, but it was in a parking lot or was on a country road. Like
there was no speed really involved. But anyway, go ahead, go ahead Nikki. Sorry, I digress.
Nikki Jacksom: No, no problem. So, the movie that I want to talk about briefly is the 2016 film, My Blind Brother and it is a
comedy. And it's pretty awful in a good way, right? Like it's all of the negative stereotypes about a blind person that you could possibly think of. But really shortly like a short synopsis of the movie, there are these two brothers. The youngest is the blind brother and the
younger brother went blind early in their childhood due to negligence of the older brother. And so everyone in the town now treats the younger brother like he is a saint, right? He can do no wrong.
And I mean this guy is pretty terrible and he treats people pretty horribly, but people revere him as like this amazing person and so I won't give any spoilers, but I will say thatthe younger brother is on a mission to complete this triathlon and he wants to swim across. Part of that is swimming across this huge lake in the town and he wants his brother to help him. And so the the story really reflects their relationship and how they kind of go through the ebbs and flows of being brothers. But also to how, you know, how people kind of have these low expectations of the younger brother only for the reason of him being blind, right? Like he's revered for really doing nothing great just because he's just held up to high regard because of his blindness.
Anil Lewis: That's interesting. It speaks to that whole sibling dynamic, you know, and I've seen some with the siblings. You know, hold their blind sibling accountable and really advocate to the parents to make sure their blind sibling is treated the same. But then I
also see other situations where the blind sibling, like you said, has just been deemed amazing for really doing nothing.
Nikki Jackson: Yeah, yeah. And it's horrible because the older brother, right, like he has been pretty much put down his whole life just for the fact of like everyone else for being his brother, for just being blind.
Anil Lewis: The guilt.
Nikki Jackson: Yeah, out of the guilt. Exactly.
Anil Lewis: Wow.
Nikki Jackson: Yeah, yeah.
Anil Lewis: I haven't seen that. I'll have to check that one out.
Nikki Jackson: It's a really good movie. Honestly, it's pretty funny. I mean, just, you know, as long as you're not
sensitive to the stereotypes.
Anil Lewis: That's part of it. Evaluating how the blindness representation is the whole key.
Melissa Riccobono: Well, and I mean, I guess if it's a comedy like that's if that's kind of the premise, I might be able to give
some of those stereotypes a pass like that's that's really good kind of knowing what I'm getting into that would help me because otherwise I might just not finish it, so.
Anil Lewis: The hard part about that too, though, Melissa, I'm glad you brought that up, is where do we draw that line? I guess it's really based on individual because sometimes, you know, the humor is there, but sometimes people don't recognize that it's just humor. They do really associate that, that's really what it is. I remember the Saturday Night Live thing when Governor Patterson was doing that whole piece that we got up in arms about that. So it is interesting to see where, where do you get the mainstream public to understand that this is just a joke? This is not a blind reality kind of thing.
Melissa Riccobono: Right, and that's really hard when the expectations are so low to begin with.
Anil Lewis: Exactly.
Melissa Riccobono: And I remember there is an episode of Becker that my father-in-law used to bring up every so often where there's a blind guy in the show, Becker and they were waiting for some BBQ to start and the blind guy had eaten like chips and dip and he'd spilled so much on his shirt that the people kept like scooping dip off his shirt with their own ships while they were awaiting.
Anil Lewis: Wow.
Nikki Jackson: Wow.
Melissa Riccobono: And my father-in-law was like “Oh that was just hilarious” and Mark and I both were just sort of like, “Ughh!” And then my father-in-law said, “Well, that's just comedy. Not every Italian is a mafioso or whatever.” And we're like, but yeah, it's tough, really tough.
Anil Lewis: A lot of people don't interpret that as humor. They interpret that as “Yeah, yeah, we've got to get the bibs for the
blind guy. But that's another that's another podcast. How about you, Danielle? Did you have one?
Danielle McCann: I do, and I just have a really quick thought on that. So I think it all it all the so the conversation has to progress to where we can differentiate comedy to reality and unfortunately I don't think society is there yet with blindness. I think society is still like, “Well, of course the blind person would have an inch thick slab of dip on their shirt, right like that's just. That's a normal thing.” So I think just society has not gotten there to where we can discern what's supposed to be funny and what's a reality for fun people.
Anil Lewis: So do you think it's an opportunity then for a learning moment? Well, I guess not necessarily because every person who sees that is not going to have access to a blind person who has that that independence perspective.
Danielle Mccann: Yeah.
Anil Lewis: And then even more so it's like they think that sighted people don't end up spilling dip.
Danielle McCann: Yeah.
Anil Lewis: You know, Yeah. It's really interesting. What do you have for us?
Danielle McCann: So I have a show. Not a movie, but I have to tip my hat to The Golden Girls because…
Melissa Riccobono: (Singing) “Thank you for being a friend.”
Anil Lewis: (Singing) “Thank you for being a friend. Do, do, do, dooo.”
Danielle McCann: So the The Golden Girls, I think dealt with a lot of issues that were progressive for the 80s, late 80s, early 90s when the show was on. So things like HIV and homosexuality, racism, that kind of thing. But my favorite Golden Girls episode is when Rose's sister, Lily is on the show and she has recently become blind and she comes to visit and she has mishaps that people without training or, you know, people who are just getting used to being blind have. So she starts a fire on the stove or she spills, you know, spills water, that kind of thing. I think it's OK to give a spoiler on this one and tell me. If not.
Melissa Riccobono: I think it's fine.
Danielle McCann: OK, so she ends up asking Rose to please come back to Chicago and live with her because she can't do it on her own. And Rose and the other in her squad, the other Golden Girls, are like, no, you have to get training. You have to go get some skills. And so that was such a progressive idea then I think it still has a lot of merit now. And so by the end of the episode, Lily has gone to training and she comes back with a guide dog and she's like, I can do it on my own. And her dog's name is Becky, I remember that really specifically she was like, well, Becky and I can do it and so, she has this confidence and so just that's my thing.
Anil Lewis: Very nice, very nice.
Melissa Riccobono: That's a really, really nice one. Gosh, where do I go because I just keep thinking of more and more and more and more and more. I think I will do one of my favorites, which I actually think it has some oddities. But for the time, I think it was pretty gosh darn well done. And it also has one of my favorite actors, Sidney Portier. I think he is an amazing guy. This is probably, I'm guessing like 1968 or so. And the movie is called Patch of Blue, and it is about this woman named Selena who goes to the park, her father, I think, takes her to the park every day and she does her beadwork in the park so she can get fresh air. And Sidney Portier comes along and befriends her and helps her learn about her environment, her surroundings.
Like, she didn't even realize there was a bathroom close by and he helps her, now, the way he helps her is like having her count steps, which I, you know, I wish, I wish she'd put a cane in her hand. But again, her parents, her, it might even be her aunt and uncle. I can't remember if they're even her parents. But whoever she lives with are very, very overprotective. And I don't know, spoiler alert or not. It does have a great ending. And I mean it, it kind of goes through the the blindness, but also a little bit of race because Selena is white and obviously Sidney Portier is black. So they are mixed race couple and it's just it's for the time. I think it's very well done and definitely a movie that I keep thinking I'd like to see again because it has been many years since I've seen it.
Anil Lewis: Yeah, and I think the point you make about him teaching her how to count steps is, is really at a space where he's not a certified O&M instructor, right. But he's coming at it from the perspective of he wants her to still be as independent as possible. So in his limited knowledge of what's acceptable or possible, counting steps, you know, sound like a reasonable way. At least it empowered her to kind of be more independent.
Melissa Riccobono: And, he believed in her. I mean, that was the thing nobody else did. And even, like, you know, she would, there's a great scene at first where they're meeting and he says, “What's your name?” She says (Quickly) “Selena,” because that's how her parents always said it. And he's like, “Say it again.” She says, (Quickly) “Selena.” And he said, “Ohh, (Slowly) Selena. That's a beautiful name.” Like he just gives her kind of a whole new way of looking at the world and believes that she can be more independent and that she has a lot to give, that her beadwork is beautiful, but she can do more beyond just that beauty. So it's it's a very good movie.
Anil Lewis: Sidney Portier, he’s an amazing actor. He's so suave.
Melissa Riccobono: Ohh. My goodness, yeah man.
Anil Lewis: I just wish I could be as suave and sophisticated as a Sidney Poitier.
Nikki Jackson: (Laughs).
Melissa Riccobono: Yeah. But, you know, all of these have one thing in common. They're all sighted people playing the blind people. I think the only one that I know where that's flipped on its head is All the Light We Cannot See that just came out and that is two blind people are the actresses and neither one had acted professionally before and they won all sorts of awards and I have not
seen that or read the book so I don't know anybody that has. Any any thoughts about that?
I was really excited to see the blind representation, not just with the blind people being cast, but like there were blind advisors I think, as well. And obviously they had to do some things because it was in the novel and it is back in the 40s, World War II, I think, right? Yeah. And so things were different, you know, kind of back in the day, but they also had a bunch of blind people that describe it with descriptive video. And I think a blind person voices the descriptive video. So it's a really cool project all the way around. Anybody seen it?
Anil Lewis: I remember all the social media around it, but I I never took the opportunity to watch it. But based on this topic, it's going to encourage me. Well, it has already encouraged me that I'm going to, maybe that's this weekend.
Nikki Jackson: Yeah, I was going to say I haven't. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any either, but it is on my list along with many
other shows to catch up on.
Melissa Riccobono: (Laughing) My list just keeps getting longer.
Anil Lewis: What a great opportunity to encourage our listeners before we even get a chance to comment on it. You guys can write, write us and tell us what your thoughts are about it.
Melissa Riccobono: Ohh, I love that idea. That is a good idea
Anil Lewis: And we'll let you know if you were right. No I’m kidding.
Melissa Riccobono: (Laughing)
Danielle McCann: (Laughing). I actually did see the the mini series and it was done really well and it was kind of cool because my husband, Brian is not one to like watch the kind of shows that I like. And it actually got him interested because he's like, “That was done right.” And it's like, well, yeah, because a blind person did that, you know, like it's great. And then also I just wanted to mention there is the movie, See For Me. I believe it's on Apple TV, but that one had a blind protagonist as well. And what I loved loved with all caps about that movie is that the blind person was not made into a saint. The blind person is kind of shifty shady and I love that.
Anil, Melissa and Nikki: (Laughing)
Anil Lewis: That is nice. And it's played by a blind person?
Danielle McCann: Yes.
Melissa Riccobono: Ohh is it? Ohh wow.
Nikki Jackson: Ohh that's cool.
Anil Lewis: It's so interesting that you say they were a little bit shady because I know that one of the things that gave me comfort when
I went blind was I read a story about a blind guy who was robbing a bank and I said, “Well, you know, if blind people can still be felons, I guess I'm going to be alright.”
Melissa and Nikki: (Laughing).
Melissa Riccobono: No, it it's, it's true. It is true. Uh, yeah. And I mean, I think that's the point, right? Because so often blind characters are either the saints or they are the ones to be pitied above all else, or they are the ones with the superpowers, super hearing, super touch, super senses of some kind.
Danielle McCann: Or they get their sight back.
Melissa Riccobono: Or they get their sight back. Ohh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Or they get their sight back. And so I think it's great to have all the different representations, but I think when you come across really good ones, I do know there was a show called Early Edition and the girl on that show is blind. And I think from what I saw, I didn't see every single episode. From what I saw, I think she owned a restaurant and she had a guide dog. Her name was Marissa, and she wasn't like a main, main character, but she certainly had a fairly large role in the show and I think she was done pretty well. I don't think she was played by a blind person, but I do think that overall she was portrayed pretty well.
Danielle McCann: There's also the Netflix series called, You so that is a super scary serial killer show. But there is a blind person who plays a minor character. The actor is blind and he plays a minor character. And what's cool about that is that he plays, so without giving too much away, it ends up that a sighted parent needs to give up their child. And above all, the sighted person trusts the blind man to raise the child. I thought that was cool.
Nikki Jacksom: Love that.
Melissa Riccobono: That's amazing.
Anil Lewis: As a single blind dad. Yeah, there you go. Blind dad power. How about that?
Nikki Jackson: (Laughing)
Anil Lewis: It's interesting because a lot of these are relatively new, but I remember Little House on the Prairie, they had the whole blind scene. If You See What I Hear movie, you know, a whole lot of this stuff out is out there, you know, but it's all about identity, right? And how do you see yourself as a blind person? I think recently the release of the blind Barbie doll is really reflective of kind of how the blind identity is kind of permeating into even, you know, the space of toys, which I thought was pretty amazing. And the overall social media frenzy around that was pretty interesting.
Melissa Riccobono: So yeah, the social media stuff was super interesting. And we actually have some comments that I'm going to read, but you're going to have to wait for them. We're going to stop for just a minute and give you this break for an ad.
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Melissa Riccobono: All right, we're back. Thank you so much for sticking with us through that ad here on The Nation's Blind Podcast. Anil, you were talking about Blind Barbie. We asked our followers on social media how they felt about the way blind people are portrayed in the media and in popular culture and whether they thought that blind Barbie was a positive representation. And here are a few responses. Ciera from Louisiana said, “Yes, Blind Barbie is wonderful and I think it's a great start. I'm hoping that we continue to have more blind and other disabled dolls to follow because like Barbie herself, we are all not the same. We look different, we have different styles, different hair colors, etc.”
Anil Lewis: That's a good point.
Melissa Riccobono: Yeah. “So, I'm hoping that any other blind and disabled doll/toys that follow, expand on the diversity of blind and the blind and disability community. As for us being represented incorrectly, don't even get me started on that.”
Melissa and Anil: (Laughing).
Melissa Riccobono: And then she goes on. She's a performer, so she wants to see more representation by actual blind actors. Louise from Vermont said, “I think it was wonderful of them to make a blind Barbie. I do not feel disrespected by the impression that she made. In fact, I was encouraged. This style shows individual taste. She was not pigeonholed into a certain way of looking or being.” I don't know if I agree, but anyway, we'll talk about that in a minute. “Yes, she had sunglasses, but she could push them up on her head or take them off as she wanted. She had a white cane and yet she wore very fashionable clothes with super high heels. Good for the image that was portrayed. So often we are portrayed as something to park in the corner of the room at your party, as I often am.”
Ohh that's sad. Sorry to hear that. “People are partying out in the kitchen while I am placed in the comfortable chair in the living room, lost and forgotten.” And that's I, I, I'm sorry about that, Louise. That is, you know, that does happen. That certainly does happen. So we're going to go to Karen from Maryland. I know Karen from Maryland, she said, “I think it's complicated.” Isn't it? Aren't many things. “Blind Barbie herself is OK. She's not everything I would have maybe wanted in a blind Barbie, but she's OK and she meant a lot to a lot of people. However, I think the marketing around her was not great.”
I definitely do agree with that. “It was a pretty big miss on Mattel's part, and I think it would have been better if they had worked with an organization that is led by and made-up of blind people. When you look at media representation in general, the more blind people that are involved in the actual creation of the product or project, the better representation, that's not always the case, absolutely, but it is a pretty good rule of thumb, it seems to me.” Yeah, I do agree with that. And lastly, Briley from Minnesota, said “The real problem is underrepresentation overall because of this, I think people were expecting one doll to fully represent every blind person, which is impossible.”
Anil Lewis: Very good point.
Melissa Riccobono: “I'm a proud and lifelong NFB member and believe in what we do and represent. I also realize that not every blind person feels represented by us. I wish that were different, but that is reality. I saw Blind Barbie and I thought she was great. She didn't use an NFB cane which leaves room for other accessories in the future, but it is a long cane and her overall aesthetic is great. When there is not multiple representation of a demographic in the media then there's not going to be in products like this either. We can say this is great and we'd love more in the future. Both things can be true.” So very good point. So Nikki and Danielle, you both have blind Barbies in your possession. Anil, do you have a blind Barbie?
Anil Lewis: Blind Ken. (Laughing).
Melissa Riccobono: Ohh, OK, that's a good idea. That's a great idea. But you know, Nicki or Danielle, I don't know who wants to go first, but I'd love to hear your thoughts about blind Barbie because I certainly have some, but I'd love to hear yours first.
Nikki Jackson: So I'm initially I was, I was indifferent about Blind Barbie, you know, I would have to agree with Karen's comments around
marketing. I think that the ball was dropped a bit with the marketing and I think initially that's what threw me off, especially around some of the language that was used to promote the doll. They were saying things like, you know, like the clothing is Velcro because
children who are visually impaired have trouble, you know, removing the clothing when that's not the case. Most Barbie doll clothing have Velcro because kids are little and they have little hands. Right like, and they need the Velcro to take off and put on the clothing it has nothing to do with the child being blind.
Anil Lewis: So, Barbie had Velcro clothes before blind Barbie?
Nikki Jackson: Yes.
Anil Lewis: Oh wow. And then they tried to. Wow. Wow. Yeah, that's crazy.
Nikki Jackson: So you can see how like, you're reading some of the language around the marketing and it's really frustrating because here they're putting out somewhat of these low expectations around like the capabilities of blind children. However, after I sat with blind Barbie for a while and and had some some really I think meaningful discourse on social media about blind Barbie and then also got to hear from folks who are blind who, you know, helped to kind of like shape what blind Barbie looked like and her aesthetic and the cane that was selected like I kind of moved over to the other side of like, well, more from moving from indifferent to like, hey, maybe this isn't so bad. And I think I and this is a full vulnerability moment right, back to the marketing piece, one of the ways that they described Barbie’s eyes, right, like when they were giving the description of Barbie was like the eyes, her eyes looked upward and outward.
And for some reason initially that bothered me to my core. I could not figure out why. And someone ended up hitting the nail on the head when they said, “Well, hey, I'm OK with that because I'm a blind person and these are how my eyes look. And I am glad that representation is out there because all of our eyes don't look the same.” And I had to really check some of this, like, internalized ableism around, like, myself and say, like, wow, like, yeah, my eyes do look different. And guess what? If a doll represents, you know, is representing that, that's OK Because that's how we show up in the world. And I think it's OK when we're like, wanting children, right, or people just to understand, like blindness is a spectrum and we all show up in the world differently. So I really started to move into a direction of
accepting blind Barbie. And once I actually purchased mine, I was sold. I was like, OK, she's adorable.
Melissa and Anil: (Laughing).
Anil Lewis: Oh Wow.
Nikki Jackson: I love her. And you know, like, I have to get over myself and out of my own feelings because ultimately this was for
children, right? Like this is something that…
Anil Lewis: And it's for the children in all of us.
Nikki Jackson: Yeah, yes, it is. And I had to like, get out of like being an adult. And being stuck in the mud and tap into that inner child and say, you know, I would have appreciated this as a child. I would have loved this. And let me just say really quickly, I bought blind Barbie and I also bought other Barbies because then I got obsessed and I said, you know what we talk about like underrepresentation, which Briley mentioned that in her comment. And so I took blind Barbie’s cane and I got a Barbie that I thought represented who I was, who spoke to more of my identity. And I gave that Barbie the cane and said, “Now you are blind Barbie…”
Anil Lewis: There you go. Nice.
Nikki Jackson: With your Afro and your and yes, like this I said, this is me. This is who I am. So I feel like you can take the accessories, especially if they start to create some more, which I hope they do, and apply that to any Barbie. And Barbie can then represent, you know, a broader spectrum of blind people across the board. It can be more diverse.
Anil Lewis: So we need some NFB Barbie canes in our Independence Market. (Laughing).
Nikki Jackson: Yes!
Melissa Riccobono: Oh my gosh and like a Barbie guide dog and…
Nikki Jackson: A note taker.
Melissa Riccobono: A note taker, a braille display, a little computer, well a computer, you know they probably have those, but you know, yes, I love this idea. I thought for our museum gift shop, you know, eventually, but our our market could start it now. That's a great idea.
Anil Lewis: I'm sorry, Sean.
Anil, Melissa, and Nikki: (Laughing)
Melissa Riccobono: Everybody's going to be calling, “Where's the Barbie cane? I heard it on the Nation’s Blind Podcast.” That's how rumors get started, boys and girls. Let's not start that rumor. We don't have these accessories. But what a great idea. That sold me, Nikki. If they would start selling the accessories, I would have a much easier time thinking it was a a really super awesome idea. So there you go, Danielle, how about you?
Danielle McCann: OK, so I have a soapbox so knock me off of it anytime you need me to wrap up. So blind Barbie really, really healed something in me that I didn't realize I still carried from when I was a kid because specifically because her eyes are different. I’m the only blind person in my family and because of surgeries and, you know, just being blind, my eyes are, I do have that, like what is it like upward and faraway gaze or something that was said in the marketing that could have been said way better.
But having her, even though she doesn't represent me exactly, she's pretty close. And just having her gaze be different and be mentioned as a like a positive thing that I didn't realize how much I was carrying until I had her in my hands and Itook her upstairs to my room and cried my face off. I mean, for a good hour. Because when I was a kid I was bullied so, so much because of my eyes and, and it just made such a, a big deal to me. Like, OK, like we're OK. Like we're not as awful looking as we thought we were or, you know, like it just made me feel better overall.
Anil Lewis: Wow, that’s powerful.
Danielle McCann: I wish she had a guide dog. (Laughing).
Anil Lewis: (Laughing). Well, soon to come at the Independence Market. Thank you for sharing that. That’s really powerful.
Melissa Riccobono: Yeah, that's extremely powerful.
Danielle McCann: Thank you for listening. And I, I posted about it on social media because I felt like, you know, our words do have power. And somebody out there needs to hear that, you know, if they're not to the point of accepting how they look like. I hope that that helps them. But also I do want to say that it is a blind Barbie. It is not the blind Barbie. And so that doesn't mean that that’s it. This is where we can really, all of our actions that we're taking to type these things out on social media, that's where we maybe need to reach out to toy companies and say, “Hey, don't forget me.”
Anil Lewis: Yeah and the thing that won me over was very similar to what you were talking about because I was, I don't know, it was a war for me. But I talked to a friend of mine who used to work at this early intervention program here in Atlanta. And she was so happy that the kids that she taught in that program were loving this blind Barbie because it was a toy, in their mind at least represented them. So,
you know, I, I at that point, I had to let that go. I mean, because that's wonderful. I think Nikki's summary around, you know, what she did with the, you know, using this and then creating her own, you know, experience that she can identify with is tremendous.
But I really agree with with Briley, the the underrepresentation is the problem. Let's continue to push Barbie out in all the different shapes and forms and colors and utility of various devices, etc., so that we are kind of fully represented because we are a spectrum. And then the last thing I'll offer is in our recent Dare to Be Remarkable conference, Kristen Sims said something simple. But it's so powerful. She says, “Independence looks different on everyone.” And I think that's true. And I think that that's one thing we should keep in mind when we're looking at these particular opportunities, but loving this topic. I think we could talk about this for 15 million episodes.
Melissa riicobono: Yeah, no, I agree. And I think the fact that we want more representation and different representation is so important. And I never thought about that. You know, growing up as a white little girl, I could go to a store and I could get a doll that looked like me. And I never really thought, I mean, okay, maybe her eyes didn't look like my eyes. And to me, if the Barbie had eyes that like moved around some in her head, because that's what my eyes do, I have nystagnous really badly. And it's very noticeable, particularly when I'm concentrating hard on something I've been told. But that never really crossed my mind. Like I just wanted to be a mommy.
But I could find babies that look like me and, you know, grew up in a pretty small town, didn't really even meet anybody of a different color until I was in middle school. And, you know, now have some very close friends who are Hispanic, Latino, African American, and, you know, all sorts of different nationalities, Asian, and just thinking about, wow, I bet when they were little girls, they couldn't go to a store very often and find a doll that looked like them. Or maybe they could find like one doll. And I mean, even then, you know, so often the blonde blue eyed baby, that was mostly, you know, for a while, what you got. But I mean, I think that we have come far. And I think that we just have more, you know, further to go, I think it'd be great if you could customize your blind Barbie, like customize the skin tone.
Anil Lewis: I'm sure that's coming.
Melissa Riccobono: Customize the eyes, you know, all of those things, or maybe, you know, eventually, maybe it's like 3D printing, where you can like 3D print your own.
Anil Lewis: Put in all your traits, all your characteristics, yeah. Just like Build-A-Bear, it'll be Build-A-Barbie.
Melissa Riccobono: Right, Build-A-Barbie!
Nikki Jackson: (Laughing).
Danielle McCann: Oh, I love it.
Nikki Jackson: That's a great idea.
Danielle McCann: I love it, you heard it here first.
Anil Lewis: We need to patent that, yeah.
Melissa Riccobono: Yeah, no, I think that's amazing. And I mean, I guess the only other thing was that, you know, they don't have her in these clunky shoes, like tennis shoes or whatever. And I do think that's good.
Anil Lewis: Yeah, it was interesting to me in the social media space that people were saying that that wasn't realistic, that blind people don't wear high heels.
Melissa Riccobono: Ooohhh!
Anil Lewis: All those different comments were just so…
Nikki Jackson: They don't know the blind people we know. (Laughing).
Melissa Riccobono: Exactly. (Laughing).
Danielle McCann: I would say like one other thing and I feel like if blind parents or those like if you could just get the blind Barbies to the hands of sighted kids as well. I think that, and not saying here, here is a special Barbie that you can play with. Like just making it like, hey, here's a Barbie for you, and she can join all the rest of your Barbies. Like that's going to teach inclusion as well.
Melissa Riccobono: And tolerance. I mean, I think if a sighted kid sees that different eye gaze, I mean, you were bullied for it. Like that's horrible. There's no need for that.
Danielle McCann: I still remember vividly hearing kids on the bus saying, “Rabies eyes, rabies eyes. You have rabies!”
Melissa Riccobono: (Shocked).
Nikki Jackson: Aw, Danielle.
Danielle McCann: And to have this doll, like it was really, really cathartic for me to have this doll. Yeah, that's all. I'll cry if I keep talking. Go ahead, Anil.
Anil Lewis: Now I was just on the comment around, you know, putting it in the hands of kids. I still think that we're not there yet where the current perception of blindness is not going to influence how that child interacts with that doll because if they go into this experience with, you know, low expectations or no real understanding of or never been never seen an independent blind person or whatever, it seems like all of those low expectations and that stuff enters the room long before we do. And I just wonder whether you know they'll be having their doll walk into walls or you know that kind of thing.
Danielle McCann: But I also think we need to give kids more credit because a lot of times it's the adults in their lives that influence how they look at things.
Anil Lewis: Oh no, that's exactly what I mean, yeah.
Danielle McCann: You know I remember as a kid until I was in second or third grade, all my friends were sighted and they never treated me different we just naturally adapted things and it wasn't until our parents said, “No she can't do that. No she can’t go there.” That's when it changed.
Anil Lewis: It's a difficult balance. I wish we could find a way to have more of that awareness and education take place so that, you know, as they develop their own perception of what a person with this particular characteristic looks, feels and acts like, it's more reflective of our lived experience. You know, I came into contact and understanding around blindness, you know, in the church. And, you know, there's not really a positive reception of blindness in most of the Bible studies that I was taking back then.
Of course, it's altered and changed, but I think that's based on influence as well. But I just wonder, you know, if there's a way that we can impact that interaction in a way that guides them in that learning if they're given the opportunity to be exposed to like a blind Barbie or anything like that. I love this conversation. I hope that it stimulates conversation with our listeners and if something interesting comes out of then, please share it with us. We'd love to hear what your thoughts are about blind representation in the media, movies, toys, etc. So let's keep this moving and keep it going, keep it alive.
But until then, remember, you can live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono: Blindness is not what holds you back.
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