Welcome to the fifty-fifth episode of Access On, the National Federation of the Blind's Technology podcast.
Episode
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Timestamps
Here is what you can hear on this week's episode of Access On.
- Join us for our Accessible Device Showcase 0:00
- Samuel Greene from Zoom North America talks accessible audio recorders 2:15
- The National Federation of the Blind's Accessibility Excellence Advocate for Home and Independent Living, Ron Miller 40:17
- Closing and contact info 1:00:19
Transcript
Speaker 1:
Live the life you want.
Access On.
Jonathan Mosen:
Welcome to Access On, the technology podcast of the National Federation of the Blind. This week, a final reminder to register for our accessible device showcase on December 17. One potential holiday gift is one of the many accessible high-end audio recorders from Zoom.
Samuel Green from Zoom North America talks about these recorders and addresses some areas where they fall short. And we welcome our new accessibility excellence advocate for home and independent living, Ron Miller.
It's Jonathan Mosen at the Jernigan Institute in Baltimore, Maryland, welcoming you to episode 55 of the podcast. Wow. Where did that time go? We are almost at the year's end, and that means that we are preparing to do our traditional accessible device showcase.
This is my last opportunity on Access On to remind you about this and encourage you to register. There's lots of information you can use ahead of the holiday season, and it's happening on December 17th this year, from 1:00 until 5:00 PM Eastern time.
Consumer electronics make great holiday gifts. Join us as we discuss some accessible options for blind people. The National Federation of the Blind in partnership with the Maryland Department of Disabilities is hosting an accessible device showcase to help you fill your gift, giving, and personal wishlist with the latest and accessible technology.
Wonderful, eh? From home appliances to leisure activities, come learn about the newest accessible devices. You can register by going to nfb.org/cena, that's nfb.org/cena, and you'll find an events and training link on there.
If you're unable to make it in person, we will be distributing a recording, but I'd encourage you to make it if you can, because it gives you an opportunity to ask any questions about any device or gadget or software that interests you in particular. NFB.org/cena is where you register for this webinar happening on December 17 at 1:00 PM Eastern.
Zoom Corporation, the Japanese audio equipment manufacturer, not to be confused with Zoom video communications, has emerged as the only professional audio recorder company offering comprehensive built-in accessibility for blind users.
The Essential series, which was launched back in January 2024, represents a historic first. You got professional field recording that speak their menus out of the box, enabling almost fully independent operation by a blind user.
Since then, Zoom has expanded the Essential series, added the Studio series, and now launched the PodTrak P4 Next, which we reviewed in episode 54 of Access On. Samuel Green is director of product development and customer support at Zoom North America, and he joins me to talk about Zoom's accessibility efforts. Samuel, it's great to connect with you again. Welcome to Access On.
Samuel Green:
Thank you so much for having me on again. Very excited to talk.
Jonathan Mosen:
So when a company releases an accessible product or series where accessibility hasn't existed before, what happens is that people wonder whether this might be a bit of a flash in the pan. But clearly accessibility for blind users is now something that's part of Zoom's culture. For those who haven't been following these developments, tell me a bit about how that happened that Zoom became so invested in accessibility.
Samuel Green:
So, like you said, it started with the H1 Essential, H4 Essential, H6 Essential. And when we developed those for a long time, questions and comments that have come in asking for a voice guidance system. And once we put it in the first three, it became a lot easier for us, and made a lot more sense to us, to keep it going.
Because we create this lineup of recorders, they have different features, different qualities, and we decided we're going to keep it going and just put this system in, basically every new handy recorder we've released since then, since that original three.
And now with the PodTrak P4 Next, which has kind of been in the back of our minds for an obvious and great place to go next with it, we are so excited to have put the system now in this four channel podcasting recorder.
Jonathan Mosen:
Do you get a lot of feedback from blind people about the accessibility features?
Samuel Green:
Absolutely. And it's been incredibly helpful in some of the firmware fixes, especially early on with the Essential series, guided us in implementing it into the new products. So we are very appreciative of everybody we've communicated with in the last couple of years as these products have been out.
And I'll throw this in now just to make sure everybody knows, at least in the US here, we have a call center in New York. We are more than happy to help, and you could always call that up for some extra assistance getting things set up with the accessibility system, because the more people creating is the best for us.
Jonathan Mosen:
I'm curious, because if you do something like Google Voiceover for iPhone or TalkBack for Android, one of the things that comes up pretty near top of the list is, "How do you turn it off?" And one thing that I think is particularly impressive is that these recorders come talking out of the box.
So non-blind people have to opt out of it rather than blind people having to find a way to opt in. And I wondered whether you'd copped some flak for that decision from people who can't stop at talking.
Samuel Green:
I don't think we have really at all. For us, there's only one way this made sense, which was when you first put batteries into the unit and you power it on, your first option that is spoken out without any option is, would you like to turn this accessibility system on?
And it's a very simple down to and click in if you want to turn it off, but it's right there. And that way, the entire setup process through setting the date and time and everything, you can do with that accessibility system.
Jonathan Mosen:
It is really interesting. I'm a bit of an audio geek, as are you, and I do watch quite a lot of these YouTube reviews of the Zoom recorders, and seeing people discover the accessibility feature. And it's probably something they've never thought about before. And the fact that it is on out of the box, I think has raised awareness in the audio community generally about the need for features like this.
Samuel Green:
I totally agree. And the other interesting thing to me is, the people I've talked to that use the system that maybe don't require it, but find it to be so helpful in navigating and being able to quickly use the product. So yeah, it's great for us.
Jonathan Mosen:
Could we go through the lineup of accessible options that exist now? And I guess it makes sense to start with the Essential series, which has been added to since those initial three recorders.
Samuel Green:
Yes. And I'll try to keep this as simple as possible, because model numbers can get very confusing very quickly. So you have the H1 Essential, which has two microphones in an XY pattern up top. It's a very small recorder and that is great for note-taking, have in your bag all the time type of recording.
Those microphones are great at capturing instruments, good at capturing voices, good at capturing samples from the world if you are a musician who likes to use found sounds and things like that. So the H1 Essential is where you start with a very simple setup.
Jonathan Mosen:
And I've got to say, just interrupting, I carry one of these around with me everywhere. I have a little backpack full, well it's actually quite a large backpack, full of technology. And in the side pocket, I have an H1 Essential and it's amazing how, if you meet someone that you want to talk to or something like that, you can just pull out that recorder and record an interview with them anywhere and there's nothing to plug in. It's very portable and you just switch it on and go.
Samuel Green:
Absolutely. That is the carry with you all the time type of recorder, the H1 Essential. The next one I'll mention is the H1XLR, which doesn't have Essential in the name, but it is within the Essential series. And the H1XLR has two combo inputs for XLR and quarter inch. And so you can plug in two microphones, you could plug in a board feed, you could plug in two instruments or a stereo instrument.
And it also has an eight-inch input that you could use for lav microphones that will override the two inputs. It is a two-channel recorder. The H1 Essential has the two mics built on. The H1XLR has two inputs built on. So those are your two smallest, simplest options for recording.
Jonathan Mosen:
I also have a hearing impairment, which is kind of interesting for an audio geek. So I wear hearing aids. And sometimes I go to events where they give you two options. You can have a receiver that brings you audio description of what's happening on the stage of a live theater production, or you can get an assistive listening device that gives you house audio.
So I actually got one of these devices so that I can take a couple of little cables and I ask for both receivers and I plug the audio description in, and I plug the house audio in, and I can mix and match those inputs and get the volume right, and I can hear both things that I need to hear.
Samuel Green:
Wow, that's incredible. Actually, I've not heard of that use case, but absolutely makes sense with the two inputs being able to do that. That's great.
Jonathan Mosen:
Yeah.
Samuel Green:
So moving up from there, you get to the H2 Essential. It's a little rectangle. It sits on a table very nicely. It has multiple pickup patterns, and this is controlled by buttons on the top of the unit.
So you have two options you need to pick. The first is which direction. So you have the front of the recorder and the rear of the recorder, and you can turn on only one of those or you could turn on both of them. And then you have your pickup pattern selection, and that is everything from a narrow mono to a very wide stereo. And so I'll just kind of describe the different cases that you could use this in.
If you are just recording yourself speaking, you might turn on only one side with the mono pickup and you could pick yourself up very nicely. If you're having a conversation with somebody else that you're looking to record, you could turn on the front and the rear in that mono mode.
And now you've got this separate tracks of these two people speaking, nicely isolated and sounding great. If you go to one of the stereo modes to only one side, either the front or the rear, great for picking up music, either from a concert or yourself playing an instrument, picking up sound effects and things like that. You turn on both the front and the rear with the stereo on, and now it's surround sound recording.
And especially in ensemble situations, that's very helpful, but it's really helpful anytime where you don't want to be worrying so much about the microphone placement, you just want to make sure you're picking up everything from everywhere, you could turn on that kind of surround sound mode. I mean, so the H2 Essential just adds a lot of functionality and different options for how you could pick up your audio.
Up from there, you go to the H4 Essential, and this is a four track recorder. So you've got two microphones up top, the same style as the H1 Essential. So good for music, good for dialogue and everything like that. Plus it has two inputs.
So that's your four tracks, the two mics up top and the two inputs on the bottom, and you can plug in instruments, microphones, board feeds, anything into those two inputs, meant so you can record all four of those tracks at the same time.
And then, up from there, you go to the H6 Essential, which is a very similar concept with the two mics up top, but now with four inputs available for instruments or other microphones.
The one other thing about the H6 Essential is that the XY mics up top are removable. It's a capsule system. And we have both a stereo shotgun microphone available you could throw on top, which is really great for precise dialogue pickup.
And then we have the EXH6E it's called, and that is basically two extra combo inputs, meaning XLR and quarter inch inputs. And so, if you put that on top of the H6 Essential, now you've got six total XLR quarter inch inputs. So a lot of input power there.
I'll stop there and just mention a couple other things about all of these recorders. They all record to SD card, micro SD cards up to a terabyte, which is quite an outrageous amount of storage space. Most people wouldn't quite need a card that big. They run on batteries, AA in every case except the H1 Essential, which is AAA on two of those.
If you need extended battery life, you can power through the USB port, either from a wall outlet or, more commonly, from a USB power bank. The same one you'd use to charge your phone can power one of these recorders for an extended period.
The other functionality with the USB is using it as an audio interface. And so if you need to route audio from the recorder into your computer, whether for recording, whether for remote calls and things like that, right now we'll get to the PodTrak P4 Next, but that's actually what I'm using right now to get my audio into the computer to talk to Jonathan. And so all of the recorders I've mentioned so far have that functionality of being able to record in the computer.
So that's the Essential series we've covered so far. Then we have the Studio series, and so you could think about it as kind of like a good, better situation. So the Essential series, they sound very good, they have all their features, then you have the Studio series and there's two recorders in the Studio series, the H5 Studio and the H6 Studio.
And the thing that makes them different than the rest is that the microphones that come with it, the two mics up top in the XY pattern, are physically bigger, which means that they have a much better frequency pickup and higher SPL limit if you're in very loud environments and just overall sound better.
And then, the XLR quarter inch inputs on the Studio series have improved preamps. It's actually the same exact preamps we have in our Pro F series. We sell the FA&M Pro for 1,200 dollars. You can get an H5 Studio with two of those preamps built in for 349. So an incredible quality available in that Studio series. And so the H5 Studio has the two mics up top plus two inputs, and the H6 Studio has the two mics of top plus four inputs.
Jonathan Mosen:
Certainly with the H6 Studio, which I have and is now my primary recorder, there are physical knobs to adjust each of the inputs. And I think that's something that someone would find quite useful because you don't have to go into the mixer to do that. And it's not really necessary. And I'm sure we can talk about 32 bit float recording in a minute, but it can be useful for just getting the balance in your headphones correct to just twiddle those knobs and get the mix right.
Samuel Green:
Absolutely. Those knobs do make things way easier to do a live mix for what you're hearing in your headphones, but they also do affect what's recorded to the SD card. And so, they can save you some time at post-production allowing you to do at least some of the mixing live.
The last thing I'll mention before we go into 32 bit float is that the H5 Studio and H6 Studio do have the same capsule system as the H6 Essential. So you can use the shotgun mic or the two extra inputs on those recorders as well.
All of the recorders we've mentioned so far have 32 bit float recording. And basically what that means is, you can't clip on the loud end, and no matter how low things are recorded, you can raise them in post-production without negatively affecting your sound quality.
So it's a very safe format to be recording in. The common thought is that there's so much more data that you are able to make things louder, make things softer, without affecting any of that sound quality of the recording.
Jonathan Mosen:
It's been a surprisingly controversial subject in some quarters, 32 bit float, because some people say it's oversold. I mean, you can overload the recorder still, right? And if you overload the inputs of the recorder, nothing's going to save you at that point.
Samuel Green:
So there's some subtleties to understand. So the microphones we have built on top of our recorders all have an SPL limit, meaning there is a point where the sound will get so loud that the physical diaphragm of the microphone will start to clip, and nothing can prevent that. However, as long as that max SPL is not being reached, all of those benefits remain.
The flexibility of raising and lowering the volume, somebody can start softly, you might have to level on your headphones turn down low and then they start screaming. As long as they're not going past that SPL limit, it doesn't matter that they got much louder. There's no gain setting available that would really make it clip to the point of no return, unless the SPL limit gets reached.
For the XLR inputs, it really kind of is clipless because any microphone you plug into it has an SPL limit itself. They buy separately, tend to be rather high. And so, the inputs of these Zoom recorders can handle the maximum volume that that microphone can handle.
As long as you're covering that dynamic range of the microphone, you really can't clip the microphone unless you have something that is affecting the microphone itself, meaning way too loud for the microphone itself, being right next to a jet engine, an inch away.
It's quite hard to reach the SPL limits on a lot of these. The Studio series is 140 db, forget the exact spec, maybe 30 feet away from a jet engine. So it is very, very loud signals that could possibly affect that.
The other concern some people bring up a 32 bit float is storage space, and 32 bit float files are 33% bigger than 24 bit files. But a stereo track and 32 bit float is going to be, at 48 kilohertz, a gig for every 40 minutes.
So 100 gig card, you're talking 60 hours of recording. So it's not a real concern for me, the storage space, because SD cards have gotten cheaper, thankfully, and who doesn't want to not clip their audio, so it just makes sense to me.
Jonathan Mosen:
Yeah. Every time I get a new Zoom recorder and my wife says, "What does this one do that your other ones don't?" Every time I get one, I just jump on Instacart or even Uber Eats and find a micro SD card and they're surprisingly cheap.
And I think just to de geekify this 32-bit float thing a bit, where this is particularly important for blind people who are recording in the field is that we are not having to look at the recording meters as we go, and maybe do a test recording and play it back and see if we hear any distortion.
And even when there are people who have good hearing, if you're in a field situation, it might be quite hard to do that playback and hear it accurately. You can manage all your levels in post-production.
Samuel Green:
Absolutely. And that is a great point. And yeah, for everybody, recording a 30-two bit float allows you to focus more on everything else happening at the time of recording, rather than making sure the levels are not getting too hot or too low. Really saves you from that.
I think this might be a good time to mention though the firmware update that came recently for the H1, H4, and H6 Essential. This update we released, it was about maybe a month ago, maybe two, added three features to these recorders, the H6, H4, and H1 Essential.
The first is the ability to record MP3s. Previous to that, your only option was to record 32 bit float wave files. And so those three recorders now have the ability to record an MP3 directly and also to bounce any other file into an MP3 format. The second-
Jonathan Mosen:
It's interesting you chose MP3, because obviously the M4A or MP4 format has better audio at lower bit rates. What was the rationale for going with MP3, which technically is kind of an older codec now?
Samuel Green:
Our belief, at least, is that especially archiving work and things like that are still generally operating in MP3 because they are the smallest, and quality itself isn't as much of a concern. It feels more universal to be going with MP3. And so that's what we added there.
The second function is a gain setting. And this one's a little confusing. I'll try to keep it simple. When you're using an H6 Essential, there's a mixer button and you can go in there and you can adjust levels using the knob on the side for what you're hearing in your headphones.
But previously, that would not affect the recorded file itself, and therefore any mixing you did live that you were hearing in your headphones would not be reflected in the file that you then loaded into your computer.
Adding the gain setting in that mixer, so now each channel has both the gain and a fader setting, the fader, again, just the same as before, will only affect what you're hearing in your headphones and what's being recorded to the stereo mix.
These recorders record the individual tracks plus a mix of all of the inputs. If you adjust the gain for that channel, that will actually affect the recorded audio. And so that's a way that you can make adjustments that will save you time in post-production with those recorders.
Then the third thing that was added was AI noise reduction. We're going to get more into it with the podcasting, but basically what you do is you open up AI noise reduction, you hit on, and you remain silent. You let the microphones you have plugged in pick up the sound in the room, whether there's AC noise, street noise, some other random hum.
And when you activate AI noise reduction, it will spend about a second and a half, two seconds, listening to the sound of the room and learning it. And then it will cut that background noise while you're recording. And because you remain silent while that was happening, it doesn't affect your voice or your instrument that you're picking up, but it will affect all of the background noise coming in.
And so that's a setting you can apply either to the onboard microphones or to the stereo mix in general. And it's a quick way to make any room sound like it's a treated studio.
Jonathan Mosen:
Yes. And we demonstrated that in episode 54 when we were looking at the PodTrak P4 Next and actually went outside on a relatively calm Baltimore street, but you could hear background sounds and things and just how it filtered that out. So it's a pretty impressive setting. And that is in the Essential line, but it is not at least currently in the Studio line. Is that correct?
Samuel Green:
That's correct. That is only in the H1, H4, and H6 Essential right now.
Jonathan Mosen:
So what do we have beyond the Essential and Studio series that are accessible?
Samuel Green:
We have the PodTrak P4 Next. And I'll mention briefly that we also have a product called the PodTrak P2, which does not have a voice guidance system built in, but there's no screen on that product. So the P2 is a podcast recorder with two USB mic inputs, meaning you could take your USB mic and plug it into this recorder, and you could plug two of them in.
And because there's no menu system, it's just the buttons there. So it is easier to get around that product. All of the settings can be done through shortcuts using those buttons that are, being that there's no screen, they are read out in the headphones for everybody.
And that's the only way you can adjust the settings, is to be listening through the headphones and using those button shortcuts to adjust all the settings. So that's the P2 that has two USB mic inputs.
The P4 Next is the newer one, and this is a four input podcast recorder. So it has four XLR inputs in the back. You could plug in four microphones. It has four headphone outputs. So each of those people with a microphone can throw on a set of headphones and listen in to the conversation, and then it records those to an SD card and runs on two AA batteries.
Being a podcast recorder, it has some other special features that you won't find in the Essential series or the Studio series. The first one is an input for a phone. It is a eighth inch or a 3.5 millimeter input that accepts a TRRS.
This is a different kind of cable than your typical eighth inch. Your typical eighth inch is a TRS, and that's for stereo audio. It's what our headphones use. That's what balance line level uses.
A TRRS is what phones use to allow you to plug in a headset and have two-way communication. So stereo audio coming from the phone, and then mono audio going back into the phone.
And so, basically the P4 Next acts as that headset where you get the audio from the phone into the P4 Next, and then all of the microphones plugged into the P4 Next, that audio will be sent back to the phone.
So you can open up the regular phone app, Zoom, clean feed, any software you use for remote communication, open that up and record that conversation onto the P4 Next.
And when you have a mic plugged in there, the person on the other side of the line can hear you as well. And there's a little feature called a mix minus that automatically happens, which prevents the person speaking from the phone from hearing their own voice back to them and creating a feedback loop.
Jonathan Mosen:
And if you're going to plug that into a smartphone, there are plenty of cables out there that have TRRS at one end, and actually USB-C at the other. So you don't have to risk losing any adapters if you get a cable like that.
Samuel Green:
Yes. But the one thing I'll point out is that if you're using a lightning enabled iPhone, that does require the lightning to 3.5 millimeter adapter to be able to work.
The other option you have is we have this Bluetooth adapter available called the BTA2, and you can plug that into that TRRS input on the P4 Next, and basically replace the cable to the phone with this Bluetooth dongle and then wirelessly connect your phone with everything else still applying.
You'll hear the phone caller on the P4 Next and the headphone outputs of the P4 Next, and then they will hear any microphones plugged into the P4 Next as well. So you have a cabled option and a wireless option.
Jonathan Mosen:
Should people expect less fidelity with the Bluetooth option or would you consider them identical?
Samuel Green:
I think you should expect a slight degradation with the Bluetooth. I think well within acceptable realms, but if you are something that really strives for the top audio quality, the cable connection will probably sound better. That connection actually takes over channel four of the P4Next. So you will lose one mic input when you're doing that phone connection.
You do have a second option for bringing in a remote caller though that doesn't take up an additional channel, and that is connecting over USB. You connect USB-C from the P4Next into a computer, Mac or Windows. You can also do this with a mobile device, go USB to USB. And that's the setup I'm using right now for this conversation with Jonathan.
So I have my microphone going into input one of the P4 Next. I've got my headphones plugged into headphone output one so I can hear myself and Jonathan. I've got the USB cable running from the P4 Next into my laptop.
In the service we're using, I have my audio input selected as P4 Next, so that routes my mic so that Jonathan can hear me. And I've got the output set to the P4 Next so that Jonathan comes through with the P4 Next and I hear him in the headphones I have plugged into the P4 Next.
Jonathan Mosen:
And you've got mix minus turned on, so I don't hear myself echoing back at myself.
Samuel Green:
Exactly. In the menu, I turned on mix minus so that there's no echo and now I've got this very simple setup that we can have this conversation. And although I'm not recording it right now, I could plug in an SD card into my P4 Next and hit the record button and I would be recording the conversation just as Jonathan is.
It does have that AI noise reduction, and I think in the podcast application is where it really shines. We've taken this thing to trade shows where there's just outrageous sound everywhere around you. And we make people put on the headphones and we hit the AI noise reduction button.
And it's always amazement at how much of that background din, if you will, is getting cut out by that AI noise reduction. And that's obviously pushing it to the max in a really loud environment. Bringing it into a studio or something like that where it's much more controlled, it does an even better job. And I actually do have that AI noise reduction on right now for this conversation.
And then there's also a button called tone, and that will do some EQ and DSing to make your voice sound better and a compressor button. And you hit that and gives you some compression, which just makes voices more present as commonly done for podcast voices.
And then it does also have four sound pads that you can load in wave files or you can record audio from a microphone right onto them to trigger sound effects or intro music, or anything like that you want to while you're recording a podcast.
Jonathan Mosen:
Do you think there might ever come a time when we get some configurability over that compressor and tone function, especially?
Samuel Green:
It's a good question. Especially the podcasting products, a lot of people come to them with very little audio, experience and background. And so we like to keep things as simple as we can. And so as of right now, that tone and compressor setting are simple on-offs. We do hear feedback, not the first time we've received the question. So something we will continue to think about having more customability to those effects in the P4 Next.
Jonathan Mosen:
A couple of accessibility questions in general. One area where people expressed some disappointment when the Essential series came out, was that it did have manuals that had some significant accessibility challenges. When I looked at the PodTrak P4 Next user guide, that seems to have improved quite a lot. Has Zoom actively sought to improve the accessibility of its documentation?
Samuel Green:
We have. And it was a bit of a surprise to us to learn how non-accessible our manuals truly were. And so we have been making small changes. We've changed, even the software we used to create those manuals to try to help get them to be more accessible in and of themselves.
And the other thing we started doing, which we had never done before, is releasing button layout documents to help guide users through, just understanding all the physical buttons and knobs and everything on these recorders. And so that's something else that we were not originally doing, but we have learned to do and are available for each of the products with this voice guidance system built in.
Jonathan Mosen:
I really appreciated that. And I'm sure it's taking a load off your plate because you were sending documents like that to blind people who wrote to you and asked for them. It was great to see it up there for the P4 Next. So that's very much appreciated.
While blind people are delighted to have these accessible recorders, one area that isn't accessible still on any of them is the file system. And that's because Zoom is using recorded prompts and not text to speech that can render anything that comes up on the screen.
That also, to the best of my knowledge, affects the level meters as well, which do matter on the P4 Next. There is also no choice of voice because of that, the spoken prompt, and there's no ability to speed the voice up. Do you see any of that changing in future so that there is genuine text to speech in future products?
Samuel Green:
It's a possibility. You kind of just summed up perfectly all of the different results of the system that we have in place and the limitations that they therefore impose. It's possible we see something different in the future, and nothing I could speak to right now, but I will say that we have gathered a lot of feedback on, especially the file lists, but a lot of others that all come back to that same prerecorded sound versus actual text to speech creation.
That would be a little bit of a hurdle to actually switch that entire system over, something that we could possibly see in the future, but unfortunately not something I could speak to right now.
Jonathan Mosen:
And I can appreciate that that may well put the cost of recorders up, because you effectively have to have a screen reader or some sort of text to speech technology built into the product. So it's a different paradigm entirely.
Samuel Green:
Right. Yeah. It's quite a DSP increase required to have that going. But we have a lot of feedback gathered that if we were to, I think we're pretty aware of all of the areas that could be fixed or improved with that new system.
Jonathan Mosen:
Do you foresee a time when this sort of accessibility might come to devices like mixes and some of the other things that Zoom is involved in?
Samuel Green:
Kind of looking at it as step by step, after the original three and having each of the subsequent H series recorders have it built in was really great to see and to have done. The leap into the podcasting products really is quite an expansion for us, because there are a lot of different settings and features of those that don't exist in the H-series.
So I think it is definitely a possibility that you see us expanded even further in the future. We make mixers, we make a tar effect pedals, a few different other things. So I do hope to see it. Nothing I could comment on right now, but I think having expanded within the H series and moving to the PodTrak series is the direction we want to continue to move.
Jonathan Mosen:
We are now getting a lot of questions from blind people who want to know which one to buy, which is a wonderful position for us to begin because if we go back even two years, there wasn't a truly accessible portable recorder out there at all, and now our cup runneth over.
So that's an amazing turnaround. Would you suggest that people talk to a reputable audio store or something like that for guidance on what might suit their needs? How do they overcome that problem?
Samuel Green:
I would suggest wherever you typically buy your products, have a conversation with them. Many of them are pretty aware of the different features of these different recorders. And really, kind of the first questions I ask when somebody approaches me with a, "I don't know which recorder I need or want."
The first question is number of inputs. How much do you need to record? Are you looking for just microphones on top, or are you looking to plug in two inputs? Are you looking to plug in four?
So that's kind of the first thing for yourself to think about is, how many things do I need to be able to record at one time? Because that is the first kind of divergence of, all right, I just need the stereo mic so the H1 Essential will work for me. Or if I want a little better audio quality and more options, I might go to the H2 Essential.
If I need to be able to plug in four microphones, we've eliminated most of the recorders. We're left with the H6 Essential, the H6 Studio, and if you're podcasting, maybe the P4 Next. So, the number of inputs is always the first question you need to ask yourself, because that is going to be the first thing that eliminates at least some of the recorders from possibility.
And then the second is, do I want to kind of splurge for the audio quality and the knobs of the Studio series, or do I not need to do that, and the Essential series will work for me.
So think about those questions before you even approach somebody, but then yes, approach where you typically purchase your products. A lot of knowledgeable people out there who can help guide you into the correct one. Our phone line at our office is also always open to help figure that out.
Obviously, we've got some people over there that, very knowledgeable about our products and will ask probably those questions, maybe some follow-ups and get you guided to the correct one.
Jonathan Mosen:
Do you have a favorite of your own?
Samuel Green:
Since it came out, the H5 Studio has been the one on my desk at home. I just think it sounds great. I do like having the knobs for an easier mix. I actually use the inputs more often than I use the microphones. And so I typically don't even have the microphone capsule on there just to make the whole recorder a little physically smaller and easier to manage. So the H5 Studio is my current favorite.
Jonathan Mosen:
Very good choice. Well, it's great to catch up with you again, and thanks to Zoom Corporation for all the work they have done in the last couple of years. I'm really looking forward to seeing what comes next, and we look forward to staying in touch.
Samuel Green:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I mentioned these on the last podcast, so I'll mention them again. We've got our main email line info@zoom dash, or hyphen NA.com, NA as in North America.
You've got my email address, which is sgreene, G-R-E-E-N-E, @zoom-NA.com. And then our main line in the US is area code's 631-542-5270, and we are all happy to help whenever we can.
Speaker 4:
Walking Alone and Marching Together is a podcast series that brings to life the history of the National Federation of the Blind from 1940 to 1990, based on the comprehensive book of the same name. This podcast is designed to make the rich and complex story of our movement more accessible, engaging, and immediate.
Speaker 7:
The book, Walking Alone and Marching Together, has been available in nearly every format imaginable, but its sheer size and depth can make it daunting to approach. That's why we're bringing it to you in a multi-episode podcast, breaking it down into manageable, compelling chapters that allow you to experience the history in a way that fits into your life.
Instead of simply looking back on events that happened decades ago, our goal is to immerse you in the times, challenges, and triumphs of the organized blind movement as they unfolded.
Speaker 4:
Episodes are coming out fall of 2025. Subscribe and follow now.
Speaker 8:
National Federation of the Blind. Live the life you want.
Jonathan Mosen:
Oh my goodness. I hope you are looking forward to every episode as much as I am and that you've subscribed to Walking Alone and Marching Together in your podcast app of choice, perhaps wherever you get this podcast.
And if you haven't yet, it's not too late. You might have a little bit of time over the holiday break to catch up on the episodes.
This is a great version of the book. I carried this version of the book home with me after my first NFB convention in Chicago in 1995 on lots of cassettes. I forget precisely how many cassettes there were, but there were a lot of them and I enjoyed it. I read it several times and it's great to have this version of it out in podcast form progressively. So do subscribe to that Walking Alone and Marching Together podcast.
And it helps us to understand where we've come from. Whenever we switch on a piece of technology that's accessible, that didn't just magic itself into existence. Those things have happened because people who came before us and put the hard work in, believed in the worth of blind people and the potential and the opportunity of blind people. It is a wonderful podcast, this. Hope you check out Walking Alone and Marching Together if you haven't yet.
You may recall that recently we mentioned that the National Federation of the Blind's Center of Excellence in non-visual accessibility was hiring, and we had two positions available, one of which was the Accessibility Excellence Advocate for Home and Independent Living. I'm delighted to say that we've filled that position.
I'm sitting with them now in the conference room adjacent to the International Braille and Technology Center here at the Jernigan Institute. And the voice may be familiar, particularly to those who are interested in technology. I know that people like to geek out on this podcast.
So I will say that since I left my Zoom H6 Studio at home today, we have a Zoom H6 Essential in the house, and I'm recording on that now with a couple of SynHeiser microphones. And Ron Miller, welcome to Access On and welcome to the National Federation of the Blind.
Ron Miller:
Jonathan, thank you very much. It is an honor to be here, and I'm actually physically in your presence as opposed to doing this online. And that's also a great privilege. And it is also an honor to be part of the staff here with the National Federation of the Blind. It's something I never thought would happen. It's one of those moments that you don't ever conceive of when you think about your future.
Jonathan Mosen:
I completely relate to that. Yes, it's exactly the same for me as well. So it's an amazing place to be, isn't it? And you were just observing to me the other day, because as we record this, you've been here just a few days, but you were talking about the energy and the dedication that you're seeing all around you. It was interesting to get that observation.
Ron Miller:
It's very true. As a person who's been to a lot of national conventions, I go to convention... I had to go to convention every year for a long time, and that was a privilege, but it was also my day job. But I think a lot of times you don't get a sense for what happens here at the National Federation of the Blind's headquarters, and the enthusiasm that you encounter at every level of the staff.
It's not just the leadership team. It's not just those of us in the tech sphere. It is everybody. Everybody here is enthusiastic about what they're doing, and there's a joy to the folks who are serving here and working here.
Jonathan Mosen:
Now, your voice is familiar to me because you went back to the Blazie Engineering days, right? Literally, my original email was [email protected]. So you've seen all of these transformations over the years when Blazie Engineering was absorbed into Freedom Scientific, and people of a certain vintage might not even realize that Freedom Scientific was once three different companies.
That's how it was founded in 2000. And you had Henter Joyce, Blazie Engineering and Arkenstone, which made OpenBook, and it all got together and you became part of that.
And you've done various things over the years. I guess most recently, people will have heard your voice in training because you've been producing quite a lot of training content.
Ron Miller:
That's true. I've worn a number of hats over the decades, decades with Freedom Scientific, Vispero. The most recent privilege I've had there was to be part of the great training department, working with Liz Whitaker and Rachel Buchanan and the rest of Liz's staff, a great bunch of people.
And I've done a lot of podcasts and webinars. And even before that time, going all the way back to the PackMate days, I used to get very regularly loaned out from my day job as a product manager to do webinars and presentations and onsite demonstrations.
Jonathan Mosen:
But you haven't done this blindness technology thing all your life. How did you get into the technology space all those years ago?
Ron Miller:
Long ago, I never would've dreamed that I would be doing a blindness technology related job. It's one of those other moments that I alluded to earlier.
I had filled a number of roles. I had completed a degree in counseling, psychology, and I learned that having a bachelor's in counseling is sort of like having a pre-med degree. You learn what you don't know and that you need to learn more.
And life happened and I got married and a lot of cool things happened, but I was job hunting. I actually became a travel agent. So I was introduced to Blazie engineering through some devices I needed, a Braille display and a note taker to do my job.
I moved from there to a job at Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma as a base operator. I was operator 15 for a lot of time and began to communicate with Blazie Engineering as I was having some issues with my Braille Light 2000 and they were having a problem with file corruption; they couldn't reproduce it.
And I ended up writing my step-by-step for reproducing that bug. For those of us who've done product management or testing, you know that what you want is an exact step-by-step process to reproduce the bug.
And I didn't know that at the time, but it's my personality. So I sent that to them. And it was their first time for being able to reproduce this, pretty critical bug in file scrambling and folder scrambling.
That brought me to their attention and they ended up hiring me as their technical support manager for Blazie Hardware. And I moved through several other positions from there.
Jonathan Mosen:
I understand why they would have been so thankful to you for that, because we've both done, long since, in blindness product management. And you know the worst thing is when a customer comes to you and says, "I am relying on your device and you scrambled my file, and something really important to me, I don't have it anymore."
Ron Miller:
Yeah, that is true. And the frustrating part isn't with the customer or the end user. The frustrating part is having communicated to you that there is an issue, that something bad is happening, but you have no way to reproduce it in house. And it is one of the worst feelings to say, "I can't reproduce that here. I'm really sorry."
Jonathan Mosen:
So your background in hardware product management is particularly relevant in the context of the work that you will be doing for the National Federation of the Blind in this home and independent living area, because you will be able to talk from firsthand experience about developing hardware.
Even something as simple as, here's what might be involved in adding a speaker to this product to make it beep, for example. You've done hardware specifications. You understand how you can go from a hardware concept to turning it into a physical thing that actually gets mass-produced.
Tell me a little bit about your thoughts on the state of the technology that blind people are using or attempting to use, in this home and independent living space. And it is quite a broad product category, isn't it?
Ron Miller:
It's a huge product category, but a very important one because it affects every aspect of our lives. When we talk about home products, we think of the major appliances, dishwashers, washers, dryers, microwaves.
But it goes to the little things, like perhaps having to set up my electric toothbrush and there's button presses and light flashes, or my razor, or who knows? There's so many things.
Jonathan Mosen:
Yeah. I knew we'd reach some sort of nirvana when I got my first toothbrush that needed a software update.
Ron Miller:
Yes. Yes. Well, at least it hasn't gotten deeply embedded in AI where it tells me that I don't want to brush a certain way and it does another way.
Jonathan Mosen:
I mean, they do that now though. They will give you feedback. I've got this new toothbrush and it gives you a kind of a nudge if it thinks you're brushing too heavily or different things like that. It's amazing. I mean, it's like...
Ron Miller:
Wow. It's everywhere.
Jonathan Mosen:
Yeah.
Ron Miller:
But it is exciting to me to be in this role because as an accessibility excellence advocate, I get to live the actual job title. I'm not worried about company profits. I'm not worried about performance in a marketplace. I am worried about trying to advocate for the best outcome for blind technology users, whether it's toothbrushes or televisions, perhaps we could say.
It is important that I bring the knowledge that I have, as you mentioned, in a development cycle, and communicate clearly how blindness can be kept in mind throughout that entire development cycle.
We hear universal design being thrown about as a term now, and how important that is, how easy it might be to design accessibility into products. If you do it at the beginning of the cycle, if you do it thoughtfully and with it in mind.
I think so much of where we encounter barriers is not through any kind of purposeful behavior, it's through unmindfulness. People who are in the product development area don't often think about, if you were to ask them and say, "Are you thinking about blind people doing dishes?" Sometimes the question you might encounter is, "Do blind people do their own dishes?"
We still have to change how blindness is regarded. And if you change how blindness is regarded in the development space, then you change how products might be released and how much more accessible and useful they're going to be to us without changing their aesthetic and their popularity and the beauty of the product.
Jonathan Mosen:
It's always harder when we are asking companies to retrofit. If they come out with a product and say to us, "Oh, we've got this product done that we just released last week, what do you think?" And if we find that there are serious flaws, it's much harder to get them to retrofit.
But if we can build those high trust relationships, where they know that Ron Miller is getting all sorts of intel from the membership of the National Federation of the Blind right across this country, and that you're that ambassador, you are that mouthpiece, you're synthesizing all this information, and that there is actual economic value for them in having you around the table on a high trust basis to influence the product development cycle, and your knowledge of the hardware is such that you can add some value there, that's where we want to be, Rob. We want to be at that conception stage.
Ron Miller:
We do indeed. If we can get those thoughts and those ideas in at the beginning, it's much easier. But you raise is a very important point as we address the state of things today, it is much more difficult to load accessibility in at the back end of the process than it is at the front end of the process.
And part of advocacy, and part of presenting things in a compelling way, and hopefully in a personable way, is that we will be able to succeed in having those conversations with products that are already released. Because it's going to be more of a challenge. It's going to potentially have an economic impact when they have to go redesign and retool.
So, I'm hoping we can have those kinds of dialogues and maybe brainstorm ways to implement fixes that aren't so impactful that the decision is made not to pursue them.
Jonathan Mosen:
We have our accessibility reporting form, where people can tell us about issues that they're having out there. And we do sometimes hear from people who say, "I just moved into a new apartment complex and I'm really finding it frustrating that my apartment is riddled with inaccessible touchscreen appliances with no sort of accessible equivalent whatsoever. There's no app. There's nothing I can do. I can't talk to this thing."
So you are really the conduit, right? We rely on members of the National Federation of the Blind to get in touch with us and tell what they're experiencing so that we know what to prioritize.
Ron Miller:
That's absolutely true. And as trite as it may sound, I am looking forward to seeing the reports. I'm looking forward to reading those reports as they come in. So let me urge everybody, please communicate with us, tell us what you're encountering, tell us what you're finding.
And it would be good to hear both positive and negative reports. It's very easy to remember to report the negatives when you encounter, but if you encounter products that are doing things the way you want them to or close to the way you want them to, let us know, because we want to sometimes have the carrots and not just the sticks when we talk to manufacturers.
It'd be great to approach a company and say, "Hey, you're doing really well with this one or these products. Here are some areas where things need to be improved." And sometimes you can sweeten the conversation with encouragement while you're talking about things that do need to be addressed.
So yes, please send us the reports, send us your thoughts, send us your comments. I'm anxious to read them and I will be taking time daily to check those things out.
Jonathan Mosen:
And we're not oblivious to the fact that there is kudos for companies when the National Federation of the Blind says, "Actually, here is a company who's got something right in a particular area." And as you say, we should do that.
The other area where that kind of market intelligence is helpful, is right now I'm in this category, we're setting up a new home. We were living in an apartment complex where we didn't really have a choice in terms of certain appliances that are there.
It's what they stock. And now we're in our own home and we can start making choices about things like microwaves and dishwashers and various other things.
And people will come to us and say, "What in this category have you found to be accessible?" Some years ago, we did actually seek to maintain a directory of appliances.
The challenge that we had was that the products changed so much so quickly, and it was hard to keep it current and that's always an issue with technology. But we would certainly like to be able to have more intel about things that are working particularly well and how you make them work.
So it might be that there are physical buttons on this thing and that's great. And some people are seeking that. It might be that if you choose to and you're a smartphone user, and you connect an app to this thing, you're going to get remarkable input and output, or it might be through a smart speaker. So there's all sorts of ways to get there.
Ron Miller:
Yes, that's true. If people wish to communicate those things, tips and tricks is what everybody tends to call them, but it'd be great to build up a database as the information is provided, of tips and tricks, and we might be able to break it up into categories.
And the danger, of course, is that the information gets old very quickly. Stuff goes off the market, that kind of things. But I would solicit the ideas. I would solicit the input, because you never know how that might pan out and what kind of resources might be made available.
Jonathan Mosen:
And home and independent living covers so much. I mean, another category, for example, within that, is devices that help us to monitor health data. And increasingly, there's so much good stuff out there, but not all of it is accessible.
And we have a bill before Congress dealing with some of that. But in the meantime, there are certainly devices which are accessible and can really help. As they say in business school, if you can't measure it, you can't improve it.
Ron Miller:
That's true. And I think we have all become more and more health aware in the last 10 or 20 years. For example, my wife is diabetic. She's insulin dependent. And one of the things I do when I travel is, I use an app to keep track of her blood glucose monitor remotely, because she will sleep through a low and she's taking some medications that prevent her from feeling the physical effects of a low blood sugar until it's dangerously, dangerously low.
So there have been times in the past when I was traveling, and she was having a low. And I have the alarm set very loud, so it will wake me in my hotel room and I monitor it. And if she doesn't wake up after 30 minutes or if it's plunging really fast, I'll call her on the phone. And the ability to do that is so important, so essential.
And I think those kinds of use cases are part of what we do as blind consumers as well, whether we're monitoring our own health or that of a loved one.
Jonathan Mosen:
That is really interesting, because we think about monitoring our own health data, but there are situations. We might also be taking care of an elderly parent. And I was in this situation not so long ago, and you want to be able to do your bit and it can be challenging. So having those options are also really important.
Travel's another area, right? I mean, independent living encompasses safe travel, and there are all sorts of interesting things happening in that space not so long ago. We add our boutique on indoor navigation. Have you been using GoodMaps while you've been in the Jernigan Institute?
Ron Miller:
I have been using GoodMaps a lot here with The Journal.
Jonathan Mosen:
How's that been for you?
Ron Miller:
It has worked really well. Occasionally I have to tell it where I'm at because it recognizes the floor incorrectly, those kinds of things. But it has been very useful. I'd love to see more of that. I've been waiting for indoor navigation to catch up with life for a long time, and it's nice to see that it is happening. I am hoping that GoodMaps or another such device can actually get the momentum that it needs.
So there's sort of a tipping point. You have to have sufficient critical mass for this stuff to take effect and to be used in the real world. And I don't think we've seen that yet, but I'm hoping that it will happen sometime soon.
Jonathan Mosen:
Yes. One of the things that's challenging is the competing indoor navigation technologies. So blind people have to have a lot of apps on their phone right now, and know which service is working in which indoor area.
Ron Miller:
And they offer differing levels of support for the traveler. We go back to the very, very early days in the 1980s. I remember being in San Francisco at the Smith-Kettlewell Eye Institute for anybody who's familiar with that institute, and Bill Geary, who was a very well-known person back in the day, what a great guy.
They were putting up infrared signage at street corners. And the nice thing about those was if you pointed your receiver toward a sign, it worked and you could know that you were pointing toward the sign. It was very directional.
So you could walk directly toward one of those signs and find it. Bluetooth, you may not know exactly the direction you need to go, unless they work with some other technologies they're doing, of course, visual mapping and those kinds of things.
But I miss the days of the sign being a point source that I could locate just with the receiver. And those kinds of things are handy when they exist.
Jonathan Mosen:
There's a lot of potential on the horizon. So people can get in touch with you, right? If they have any particular ideas or questions or just to say hello and welcome to the Federation.
Ron Miller:
They sure can. I can be emailed at my new email address.
Jonathan Mosen:
It's all shiny. It's got that new smell about it.
Ron Miller:
I've barely taken the shrink plastic off of it.
Jonathan Mosen:
Yeah, yeah.
Ron Miller:
It is Rmiller, R-M-I-L-L-E-R, at NFB, November foxtrot bravo dot org, and [email protected].
Jonathan Mosen:
We will hear plenty of you on Access On going forward, so we'll put you to work. But again, welcome to the Federation. We're absolutely thrilled that you are here and part of the Federation’s Center of Excellence and non-visual accessibility. It's going to be an exciting journey and we're looking forward to delivering some truly tangible outcomes for blind people.
Ron Miller:
Well, I am thrilled to be here and I am thrilled to be one of the joyful, enthusiastic crowd here at the Jernigan Institute at the National Federation of the Blind headquarters.
Jonathan Mosen:
That concludes this episode of Access On, the technology podcast of the National Federation of the Blind. To send in a contribution for a future episode, email us, attach an audio clip or just write it down, and send it to [email protected]. That's [email protected].
To keep up to date with Access On, follow us on Mastodon. AccessOn at nfb.social. That's [email protected] on Mastodon. To subscribe to an announcement-only email list about upcoming episodes, send a blank message to accesson-announce-subscribe at nfbnet.org. That's accesson-announce-subscribe at nfbnet.org.
To learn more about the National Federation of the Blind, visit our website, nfb.org, or phone us, 410-659-9314. That's 410-659-9314, and be sure to check out the nation's blind podcast right from where you heard this podcast.