Good morning. Welcome to perspectives on disability in U.S. Muslim communities. All cameras should be off and all microphones muted unless you're asking or sharing a question. Thank you.
SAFAYA FAWZI: Thank you, Maya. We're right at the hour. So I am going to go ahead and welcome everybody to this presentation.
So I'm going to welcome everybody to this presentation this morning. Which is perspectives on disability in U.S. Muslim communities. I do have slides and I have just posted a link to a Google Doc which has the questions. The slides themselves will just be — are just titles in terms of listing everyone's name and information and then the question that I'll be asking at that time.
So all of that will be read out. There's no information that's being missed from the slides. But the Google Doc is also in the chat box for folks who would like to follow along.
So I would like to introduce formally today's panelists. We have Nashiru, Nash Abdulai who is the president of Global Deaf Muslim and is a social worker as well in his day job. We have Mariyam Cementwala who is a political officer with the U.S. embassy in Bangladesh and works with the U.S. Department of State. Ronza Othman Department of Health and human services. Zaheer Maskatia Associate Counsel at the V.A. Board of Veterans' Appeals. And I myself am the moderator for this panel. My name is Safaya Fawzi and I'm with the Diversity and Inclusion Center at the American Bar Association.
Before I kick off, I want to give a disclaimer. This group, while representative of an array of perspectives on disability in the U.S. Muslim community, we only speak for ourselves so we don't speak on behalf of all Muslims. Oftentimes Muslims and many people from diverse backgrounds are asked to do that. We will just be sharing our own experiences. However, the — each of the panelists has expertise in different areas and of course, we'll be sharing resources and information that may be helpful for you all or for those that you work with to access as it relates to Muslims with disabilities.
This slide states introductions. Any arrangement of those three things. For this question, this is going to be our most formal question. Then we'll move to a panelist discussion. I'll call on everybody in alphabetical order.
NASHIRU ABDULAI: I became deaf due to meningitis. After that, that's where I acquired American Sign Language. At that time, I didn't see any other deaf Muslims. But I just kept that in the back of my mind. I went through school. I got to high school.
And again, looking amongst the interpreters I had, it was the same pattern, there were no people affiliated with the Muslim faith. And so a lot of times people said that they may have — so once I went to the Rochester institute of technology, then I started seeing more and I said I've got to do something about this.
So I established the Global Deaf Muslim organization back in 2005 and with Muslim agency, we co-partnered together. And then there would be more deaf Muslims coming on to the scene. Mostly it was at first in the Rochester area, at first, locally.
But I wanted this to spread worldwide and I'm happy now to see the impact it has made at the ISNA conference, the CNA conference, more deaf individuals attending, more interpreters coming to provide services.
So I believe that helped the situation improve and also allowed individuals to become more knowledgeable about Islam. People were no longer feeling oppressed and able to identify as Muslim whereas before in school and classes, they may not have been able to do so due to there being a dearth of interpreters or not as many Muslims around. So I think this helped hearing people also become more aware and broaden their horizons that the deaf population in the Muslim faith was not just a small microcosm. It was actually more than people realized. And they recognized sign language as being a language.
So now I'm still trying to get the word out. And being involved with that advocacy. It's been a lot of work. But like said, I grew up as a deaf Muslim. I identified as that. I identify as a deaf person. And hearing people often thought that I could not do for myself and they would make decisions for me. But I'm a very empowered individual and I am certain I can take care of my own needs. So growing up as a deaf child, I learned to do for myself and I also thank those who supported me. I'm adjusting my camera angle. I realized the interpreter was seeing only half of my signing thus far.
SAFAYA FAWZI: Thank you so much, Nash, for that introduction. So I'm going to turn it over to Mariyam who is next to give an introduction.
MARIYAM CEMENTWALA: Hi. Thank you, Safaya and thank you to the organizers at the National Federation of the Blind, for taking time to make this virtual symposium happen.
When I think about my identities and they are not mutually exclusive and they are all layers and all a part of me, it's hard not to think about my experiences growing up in the blind civil rights movement through the National Federation of the Blind and teaching class, a student led course at U.C. Berkeley, Jacobus tenBroek's alma mater. We talked in 1940 he founded this organization.
So my identity in the intersectionality include a rich element from the literate and writings of tenBroek himself and my philosophical architecture has been affected by the way I think about disability rights.
That said, one thing I think about is it is important when we go into the workplace or anywhere to realize we take all of ourselves to work. I do. So my Muslim identity is sort of sported on me because I cover and I wear — and that was not always the case. A lot of people could see me visibly being blind but not visibly as Muslim. Now, that's not the case.
I would say that what it has done for me is it has opened up a way for others to find common ground with me and for me to find common ground with them because sometimes people perceive your intersectionality identity as vulnerabilities and when people see you as more vulnerable, you become more approachable. And in the career that I've chosen which is diplomacy, I think approachability and access to credible information is vital.
So I really think that my intersectional identities has played a role in making me more effective.
The other thing I would say is gender is an important component to my identity because it is different being a Muslim male. It's different being a Muslim woman. It's different being a Muslim woman with a disability and a Muslim man with a disability. You see that play out in different social settings.
So let me pause there and say that once again, thank you for organizing and we'll cover how my identity has sort of led to my focus and my work when I talk a little bit and sort of further discussion about the launch of the disability and freedom of religion and belief working group at the state department. But my identity is because I walk into work with all of my identities, has played a role in informing my approach and thinking and attitudes to my work and also in my engagement with Muslims on issues of the intersection of faith and disability directly. Thank you.
SAFAYA FAWZI: Thank you so much, Mariyam. I really appreciate that. Next is Ronza. If you could give your introduction.
RONZA OTHMAN: Sure! Thank you. Happy to be here. I've been attending the tenBroek symposium since its first inception, 14 years ago and never could have imagined I would be on a panel. Still not sure I'm worthy of being among this particular group of people. But thank you for having me.
I am Muslim and I am blind and I am an attorney. I was born Muslim and blind but not an attorney. I had to get there. But being a Muslim and having a pretty obvious disability was an interesting and created unique challenges.
I attended, for example, Muslim Islamic Sunday school which is and all day thing from when I was 3 years old and of course, I couldn't see but this wasn't an area where things like accessible materials. Nobody knew about Arabic Braille or anything else. So really I just had to figure it out and focus on listening primarily.
The conversations in the '80s weren't happening about disability. I learned to read and write Arabic which is so emphasized in the Muslim religion because the texts are in Arabic. I grew up in one of the largest Muslim communities in the United States. It was still growing. I remember going to the ribbon ceremony — cutting of the mosque. This is in the Chicago suburbs. I attended a parochial Muslim middle school and high school. So, of course, I was the only person — not only the only blind person but the only person with a disability or at least a disability that we knew about. Back then, hidden disabilities weren't something that people really even talked about being a thing.
So that was sort of interesting. I had a graduating class of 17 from high school. And so of course, there was a lot more one to one attention but there was also a lot fewer resources. My college and law school experiences were pretty standard except that I chose to go to college, law school and graduate schools that were as close as I could find to the Muslim faith tradition and at the time, it was Catholic. Because I wanted to really have values in my educational environment that were similar to the values I had growing up.
I think when you're a person with a disability and a person with a disability that comes from an underrepresented population, you have some stereotypes in your mind. There are some things that you think you need that you don't necessarily know because you don't have access to all of the information that kids without disabilities or who have full access to all of the information that you don't, just because of the method you're getting it, would have. So I don't regret my path but I don't know that I had all of the information to make the best decision.
After law school, I did a lot of disability related work and at the intersection of religion and national origin and other intersectionalities. I practiced law in a law firm and also as a solo practitioner where I handled a lot of habeas cases involving the Department of Homeland Security because I came of age in the post 9 11 era where being a Muslim was an — and still largely is challenging. Because of discrimination and heightened government scrutiny.
I also dealt with the tension and immigration issues and that was really the first time I interacted with individuals that actually had intersectionality of religion and other factors as well. For example, people who were in wheelchairs who were in detention facilities and could not get to where the prayer services were going to be held. I remember an individual who was, for years, physically carried up and down the stairs of our mosque. She was in a wheelchair. She just had to wait for whoever showed up to be able to carry her whole wheelchair and her in it down the stairs because it was not an accessible location. And this is one of the largest mosques in the country.
There are some implications we've been exploring. I can't go sighted guide with anybody, with somebody of a different gender, for example, because if I'm getting ready to go to prayer, I've engaged in an Islamic cleansing ritual that I would lose that ability to pray without having the cleansing ritual again with using my cane in a mosque where you take off your shoes but a cane touches the same thing that the ground does.
It was interesting. And lots of problem-solving experiences but overall, the NFB helped me find my voice and appreciate my identities rather than hiding them. Before I met the NFB, I thought if I could just get along without anybody noticing me but because I learned to use my voice as a blind person, that also helped me translate to being able to use my voice as a Muslim and as a Muslim blind person. Thanks so much.
SAFAYA FAWZI: Thanks for that wonderful introduction, Ronza. Really appreciate it. Our last but not least panelist who will share is Zaheer.
ZAHEER MASKATIA: Thank you, Safaya. And I want to thank the organizers of this panel for reaching out to us as a first time attendee and first time presenter at the ceremony, I'm truly honored. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area. I was born with Spina Bifida and what that means for me is that I have lower body muscle weakness. I walk with an impaired gait and I have had some learning disabilities, too, that I've had to struggle with through school.
You know, the identity part of it is — it's complex. I'm a Muslim, male, south Asian attorney with Spina Bifida. And I struggle with — because sometimes my disability is invisible, it is kind of invisible and it is kind of not. I'm not immediately recognizable as a person with a disability. So one of the outcomes is it has been a little bit harder to get myself on an equal playing field. When I was in school, I had to get special testing to get myself time and a half on examinations to contend with learning disabilities. But growing up as a Muslim, disability — in a situation where there are a lot of families with immigrant backgrounds, disability in other parts of the world is not always defined the way it has been in the United States, definitely since I grew up in the '80s and '90s.
Since my disability is so invisible, the need to discuss it was not super apparent growing up. I did have feelings surrounding it and it did have effects. My feelings were internalized. Issues I had were not brought to the surface.
There were issues growing up as somewhat awkward child with — adolescent with a disability and certain symptoms and certain presentations. I had braces growing up, ankle braces, AFOs. And yeah, I got made fun of in school. And it did affect me throughout life.
The other thing is that I traditionally — because of my identity question, I haven't identified with disability communities until very, very recently and it has been so empowering and it's been really helpful. So I am — I've been glad to be able to participate with groups like the National Federation of the Blind. The one way that my disability — my identity as a Muslim and a person with a disability has presented has been, you know, in school, I got extended time on examinations. And I got — with the bar examination, too. So one possible way was at some point, there may have been — it may have been because my exams were so long, they may have impinged on prayer times for those of you who don't know, Muslims pray five times a day in specific windows, depending on the position of the sun in the sky.
So if my — if the timing for my exams was longer, it sometimes affected when I needed to pray. But even that, by in large, was something that I contended with into adulthood. So different identities, different intersections. It's been a struggle but I've been able to cope and to deal. Thank you again for having me here.
SAFAYA FAWZI: Thank you so much, Zaheer for your introduction. So now that you have a little bit more of a background about our panelists, I'm going to move to our first discussion question. I'll just briefly read out this slide here. Some of you already kind of spoke to this a little bit in your introductions. The question that we have here is how does your work currently — sorry about that — how does your work currently intersect with Muslims with disabilities. Do you work with Muslims who have disabilities? Do you engage with them? If so, how? Kind of speaking a little bit to that within your day to day experiences. And whomever would like to take it on first is welcome to answer that question. How do you engage with Muslims with disabilities in your work?
RONZA OTHMAN: I currently work for a federal agency where we deal with all kinds of things in terms of the intersectionality and employment and benefits and right now we're dealing with COVID-19 response and vaccination and equity.
So our target population of beneficiaries, recipients and consumers are primarily the elderly and people with disabilities. So it surprised me, frankly, how many Muslims with disabilities I've encountered in our work. I didn't realize there were many Muslims with disabilities out there in the United States until starting to get some of these religious accommodation requests. And other kinds of concerns about how the government is doing "A," "B" or "C." Some other areas — in my current job, in the employment setting, I think there are some real rub and misunderstanding between some of the different categories or demographic groups in underrepresented groups and what their needs are versus what other groups are.
One of the challenges we're having which I think is super fascinated is related to the federal posture on bathrooms and transgender individuals and which bathrooms they should use. There are some definitions, not just in Islam but other religions in terms of gender, figuring out how do we balance what people sincerely held belief is — it doesn't matter if they're right or wrong, it matters what their sincerely held belief is in terms of what they can and cannot do and making sure we're equitable to everyone.
So for example, having single use bathrooms but not saying the single use bathrooms are for Muslims and Jews and people who are Mormon but not people who are transgender or people who are transgender, the single use bathrooms are for them.
So the challenge is figuring out how do we carve out everybody's space as opposed to just having whatever the community is that has the particular lens on them being the one that is accommodated. Those are some of the things I'm seeing right now in my work.
MARIYAM CEMENTWALA: I can go next. It is interesting when I talked in the introduction about bringing all of your identity to work, that can sometimes get you in trouble. Here's why.
When I was with the Office of International Religious Freedom at the state department under ambassador — so when I was with that office, one of the things that came to light and it was because of conversations around two key and high volume pilgrimages is how do we make the expression of worship, the participation of Muslims accessible across the board including for Muslims with disabilities.
The conversation came up in the context of families attending with children with disabilities. And that's spawned a whole conversation around disability and the access to sacred spaces. Religious practice, worship, sermons and it went to how are churches accessible? Are they incorporating sign language interpretation?
How are other spaces accessible? Not just from a physical or architectural standpoint or even a technological one but attitudinally. How are faith leaders championing inclusion or perhaps, holding age old precepts about people with disabilities being objects of charity. So that led to my launching the disability and freedom of religion and belief working group which is an interagency working group that still exists at the state department, led by the Office of International Religious Freedom but on which we have incorporated folks who are real subject matter experts from our disability rights teams in the bureau of democracy human rights and labor. And from within U.S. aid, including from their office that covers faith based initiatives.
So it became an interagency effort. One of the things that we did is around the ADA's 30th anniversary, we hosted a roundtable and we featured and showcased in that roundtable a combination of things. Challenges that Muslims with disabilities brought up. But also success stories. Stories from which others, including faith leaders, could learn about how we create more inclusive spaces. So for instance, one of the folks in the roundtable was an individual who is an Indonesian Muslim wheelchair user and he worked to erode some of the stereotypes around disability and what it means to be a wheelchair user and the cleanliness issues that come up and basically helped make mosques accessible for wheelchair users, again, not just from a physical standpoint but an attitudinal one in Indonesia.
So the purpose of not just the group, the working group but the roundtable which was hosted by ambassador brown was to feature the challenges but also the opportunities we have as communities of faith in changing the way we think about and approach issues that intersect around religious practice and disability. So one of the things I wanted to do in the chat box is post the link to the roundtable. The audio is pretty good. The video quality, unfortunately, is not. But the content, I think is useful for those who want to learn more about this. That's just one of the ways in which my identity and then also experience both in terms of disability advocacy and in terms of broader legal advocacy because I come from a human rights background, come from practicing and studying law. How that has sort of intersected in the work that I do as a U.S. diplomat now.
Now I'm with the U.S. embassy in Bangladesh and one of the things that we're doing is having a conversation both at the embassy level but also at the departmental level about diversity, equity and inclusion issues.
When we talk about diversity, we often focus, I find, on race and gender because they're obvious and there's a history there. There's a lot of talk around race and gender but disability — and sometimes religious identity but less on religious identity. But disability often gets ignored. In fact, there was a recent politico article that talked about diversity at stake. It covered everything under the sun in terms of challenges within our agency. But it didn't necessarily talk about disability.
So one of the things that I'm doing is bringing all of the intersections of these identities forward, in part, just by being at the table and being a part of the conversation and being constructive. That's something that I find more and more in the job is important and why these conversations about the layers of our identity as we think about diversity, equity and inclusion are important. Thanks.
NASHIRU ABDULAI: Hello, everyone. First, I want to thank you for allowing me to participate in today's panel discussion. I'm learning a lot from each of you, about the challenges that you've shared and challenges I faced as a person with disability as well.
Deafness is often said — is often kind the invisible disability. I find myself having to explain that I am deaf because when someone just looks at me at face value, they don't realize that I have a disability. Sometimes I face resistance or pushback from individuals not realizing I'm deaf.
At one time, I was 13. There were a bunch of us in high school. We had gone out and it was very frustrating because when I went in, there was an interpreter with me. Two interpreters. One male. One female. And the male interpreter wasn't that effective and so I asked to have the interpreter switch. But when I tried to go into the mosque and the presentation was in Arabic and no one was speaking English. So people were writing to me. I asked if there was any English translation and they said no. They would not allow the interpreter to be placed in the front of the room either.
So the female interpreter and I were whisked away but I, as a man, sitting in the section where men were sitting, was not able to see the interpreter clearly because she was on the other side of the room. So I was quite — I was missing out on a lot of information because of the lack of access to the interpreter. So that was just the start of my experience as a deaf Muslim. I realize that other people with disabilities face other issues, too. But me being unable to hear, that was a huge issue. So I talked about — I asked about interpreting services being provided and I learned a lot about deaf identity. And sometimes people would ask me for medical documentation to show that I was deaf. I would have to bring people with me to prove that.
And a lot of times people would say just stay home. You don't have to come. It's not really beneficial for you to come. But I would still go and I would sit with others. And it was a very overwhelming challenge.
So I got in touch with the state department. I spoke with someone named Rasheed Hussein and that was a representative under Obama's time. And I shared about my experiences. And Rasheed hadn't known about the challenges that deaf individuals face. So I explained that in depth.
Then when I returned, I decided that I would host workshops, orientations, so that I could change the system and foster change. And there are still problems that are rampant to this day. Of course, when COVID hit, that postponed things as well. I'm trying to figure out how to resolve issues. Maybe have a team of interpreters who are familiar with Arabic, interpret from Arabic to English to sign language. And that could foster a better experience for deaf individuals, also having a team of interpreters that include both males and females as well.
Having the importance — stressing the importance of having the interpreter at the front of the room is still a challenge. People often say no. An interpreter is too distracting. They need to be relegated to the side of the room but then I'm playing visual tennis back and forth trying to see the interpreter and the speaker. And it takes a lot of energy to do so different prayers. Most interpreters are female. It is rare that we have a male interpreter in those settings. And the key is the gender, not so much the skill of the interpreter. But then when their presentation is being given, logistical considerations have to be made about where to place the interpreter, where to place the individuals needing to access those services. If the interpreter is female, where should she be placed? And sometimes it's a lot, having to navigate that through various presentations.
If it is a male presenter and male interpreter, that's fine. But if it is a female interpreter, I'm struggling to see because they place the female interpreter to the side and it is hard for me to access that and sometimes I just give up. I say it's not worth it because then I'm stuck without access. That's a huge problem. It's quite challenging.
But I'm happy that Adam is here and they're very open minded. And I think they serve as a good example of how to provide interpreting services in the placement of interpreters because they have experiences with deaf individuals attending so I feel much more comfortable at that location. I'm hoping that this model will spread to others as well. So deaf individuals can have access.
In my area, I've worked hard to explain about my needs. So I try to do outreach and share what I've learned but a lot of times there is pushback because other locations will say we only have one deaf individual attending and then there is the financial aspect to it and are you crazy? Interpreters cost how much per hour? There are times when we've been willing to share our funds to provide interpreting services at other locations as well.
So it's growing but it's an uphill battle to get people to understand. We sometimes run against a brick wall. I'm thankful for individuals such as add am who are helping spread the word and helping improve services.
We also want hearing individuals to get involved with us as well. Especially during the time of Ramadan when presentations are being made. It is important that we decide not to use our — so a hearing person who comes in just wonders what's going on. But when it's done, then we ask them, well, how did you feel when you weren't able to understand anything? And they shared their perspective and I say well that's exactly how we feel. We're in a mosque and everyone is talking but there's no access to an interpreter. We don't get anything out of it as well. And it was an eye opening experience for them to realize the importance of sign language being provided. Sign language interpretation being provided. That lip reading was not an option, even for individuals who are hard of hearing that want signing. A hearing person might be able to access it through lip reading but it is important to grow the pool of interpreters as well in the field and then the last thing I'll say is I did an interview with the state department about resource management and human resources, recruitment, specifically. And I said — what do you think the key is in terms of accessibility? And I said it's having accessibility so that individuals like me can get a position. Then I also talked about the Islam experience. I shared with that and the person interviewing me took my point into consideration about an interpreter being provided. I said I would be more than happy to come back and talk to the group. It is a start.
But as I said, it is a lot to manage. It is a lot to navigate and trying to get the word out. And spread that word. And I've experienced a lot of resistance. But I think it takes time to get people to open their minds and maybe change will happen incrementally.
There is a doctor, Dr. Ingrid Madison who is a wonderful lady. She's very motivated and trying to work through situations with us. So I think referring persons to Dr. Madison really helps with these challenges. It is not the end all, be all. We don't need your pity. We need access.
There is a lot of work still to be done. I talked to other individuals who experience the same things throughout their childhood and were trying to foster that change, doing it together.
Can you imagine having to navigate the different settings I have without access? It is a step by step process. We keep hitting brick walls but there is a lot of work to be done, introducing folks to others. It is a small field but there's so much that can be done. Sometimes it feels like I've got the world on my shoulders, fighting for access for everyone. And I understand things take time but I share my perspective and try to work throughout process and hoping that change will happen.
And making connections with other organizations, working with various individuals, hearing organizations, Christian organizations, Muslim organizations, just working together to better the experience so that we can foster that change.
And a lot of Christian organizations are willing to partner with us as well and they've experienced similar things. I talk with those individuals about the changes that have happened. And share information not only here in the United States where things are actually better than other countries in terms of access. But hopefully the change will happen.
SAFAYA FAWZI: Thank you so much, Nash. So due to wanting to get through our questions and then leave some time for questions, I'm going to put the next couple of questions that we have into the chat box here and also read them out loud. So I believe our panelists, even just in the first question have done a good job of kick starting the conversation around these questions. But the questions that we have now are how is disability viewed firstly within your experience of the Muslim community. I think we've heard some of that but anything you want to add is great. How is disability viewed within your experiences in and outside of the workplace? You can speak more to that if you have not already. And then let's kind of keep the workplace dialogue going. How could workplaces do a better job of being inclusive of people with disabilities who also identify as Muslim. So really thinking about — there are challenges within the Muslim community, within perceptions from others. Some of the challenges are mirrored in other faith communities or in other workplaces. So what are some ways that workplaces might be able to do a better job of inclusion or what are positive experiences or negative experiences you've had in the workplace, related to accessibility, accommodation, and engagement? And anybody can take any of those questions first.
ZAHEER MASKATIA: I'll kick it off about how it is viewed from my experience inside and outside the workplace. In my experience, culturally again, disability is not a super common subject of discourse. It is not necessarily delineated as its own separate category. On the other hand, in the United States, people tend to want to correct things that are nonconforming. That's why we have things like orthodontic braces that are more common and special glasses and things like that.
That's the community aspect of how it's looked at. One thing I wanted to point out was that groups like MUHSEN, it is a — it is an organization I believe based in the D.C. area. They work to counter act the tendency to not want to talk about disability. They do this by providing a certification to mosques as different levels of accommodating.
Before I forget, let me thank the other panelists so much. You all are just amazing and your presentations have been very eye opening for me. As somebody whose disability is physical. When I think about disabilities in the mosque or workplace, I tend to think about typically physical obstacles. Obstacles that relate to my access, ingress and egress into offices and things like that.
So hearing from all of you has been very inspirational. They provide certification to mosques as different levels of accommodating. They'll give certifications for having interpreters, sign language interpreters for individuals living with blindness or hearing impairments. Things like that. I'll drop that in the chat, too. Also like in my work with the V.A., I guess my client is the U.S. government but the folks we serve are veterans. They are veterans who have disabilities, physical, psychiatric and both and I think my unique experience as somebody with Spina Bifida which has a lot in common with spinal cord injuries and back injuries, I'm in a unique place to exercise a lot of empathy with disabilities that can't necessarily be completely encapsulated in the diagnostic code in the CFR that we apply. So I think that — while it doesn't necessarily directly correlate to my identity as a Muslim, it is how I, as a Muslim lawyer with a disability can kind of like exercise a unique insight and try to go the extra mile for the people that I serve.
RONZA OTHMAN: Thanks, Zaheer. That was really good. First, Muslim is one of those really great entities on its face but I as a Muslim with a disability struggle with it because the literal translation means to do a good deed. So the fact that their name, MUHSEN, the organization that's helping mosques to increase accessibility, the fact that in their name is to do a good deed strikes me as — it rubs me the wrong way. But the other aspect related to MUHSEN, it is nice to have them because up until four or five years ago, there really was nothing in the United States. Muhsen is led by and doesn't have leaders that are themselves disabled. The notion — they're not implementing that. I'm not saying it is a bad organization. I wish that they actually focused more on what the recipients of the services are seeing they need as opposed to what they themselves think we need and there is a lot of work to be done there and I think we can be part of that.
There are some other areas in terms of perceptions and stereotypes and other things that I think about when I hear this question.
My family were refugees. We came to the United States hoping to go back to our native land when things got better and then my family, my parents figured out pretty quickly, they had a kid with a disability and then they realized they could never go back. Because the infrastructure, the supports for people with disabilities just doesn't exist in the Palestinian territories. It is a third world country. You're lucky if you get water and food let alone access to resources. My grandfather was blind. They just said he can't see well. But don't tell anybody that. Other relatives who have other kinds of disabilities, hidden and visible, they kind of put them — they stayed in a basement somewhere, in the back of the room. When company came, they didn't admit that they had the relative. I remember when I was in college here in the United States, a friend of mine who was being courted and her family never told the suitor's family that she had a younger sister with down's syndrome because it was like oh, no, they're going to think that that's a taint on our family and the bloodlines and they won't pursue our daughter anymore. So therefore, we're going to hide this person with the disability. That was probably about ten years ago. So we're not talking ancient times here.
Relatedly, I think there's a lot of differences for Muslims with regard to courtship. So much of what happens in Islam and marriage is done on paper ahead of time. In western society, for example, people meet and they date and get to know each other. And they engage in communication and spaces where they're alone. Because of some of the rules and some of them being actual rules and some of them being cultural and not necessarily religious decrees, so much of what happens in terms of Islamic relationship building or courting happens on paper ahead of time.
Okay, my daughter has a degree. My daughter has a job and a green card. Your son has a house, a green card and a whatever. So they start matching and matchmaking based on actual characteristics and disability is often a disqualifying characteristic, especially one that's genetic.
So if you're talking to somebody about — I remember having — being courted by a guy once and his mom was like oh, no, I will not have a daughter with a disability. My son deserves someone perfect. That was the end of that relationship. And so I think there's a lot that happens in terms of just the Muslim courtship processes that push people with disabilities out. I don't know what the data is in terms of how many adult Muslims with disabilities that are single. I know anecdotally, it tends to be more women. But that's a key aspect I think of living as a Muslim with a disability. Just some of my thoughts.
MARIYAM CEMENTWALA: I want to bounce off of some things that Ronza was talking about. My own experience resonates.
Like her, I came to the United States as an immigrant. Like her, I experienced the same stereotyping, particularly in the sort of context of relationship building and courtship and all of that.
But I want to take this conversation to kind of a different setting which is combining the workplace issues and the attitudes about Muslims — attitudes about Muslims. I've had through the state department as a diplomat, the opportunity to live in two Muslim majority countries in the Gulf and the reality is that first of all when people would see me initially as a brown Muslim woman who covers and oh, has a cane but they thought she must be a member of the local staff. She must not be American. I would often have situations where I was at the ambassador's residence and prominent members of society who you're supposed to build a relationship with and their first reaction to you is shock. But then once you get over that shock, you start building a relationship because, in part, there is a need on both sides but certainly on their side as well to have a good relationship with an American officer from the U.S. embassy. So there's that. And then the second piece of this — and I sort of told part of the story when I spoke in July at the NFB national convention is that obviously the attitude — you can extrapolate from the story that the attitude is no different than the attitude about anyone with a disability in any mainstream community which is not very — because the first thing you associate with disability is the dis— the can't do, can't see, the no part of it.
I was in a taxicab in my first post and I speak several languages. I was communicating in the language of the cabdriver. He went through every possible place that he thought I could be from except the United States even though I was going to the embassy. And at the end of the conversation and when the can was approaching the embassy, realized that I was blind Muslim, visibly and worked as an American diplomat for the embassy and was in complete shock and disbelief. And then went back to where he lived with hundreds of day labors and told my story. This is the part that folks at the convention didn't hear. The second half of that story.
That is that he went back, told my story. There is this woman that I met as I was driving a can today and she exists. And not only does she cover and she's Muslim and she speaks — and what have you but she's also blind and she's an American and she works for the American Embassy as an American.
So of course his friends didn't believe him and they placed a bet with him that I don't exist. So one day when I called him to get a ride home, he said I can't pick you up and sent over a friend to pick me up because he wanted to prove to the friend that I existed so that the friend could tell other people in his building that I exist. That I'm real. That this is not a figment of his imagination. While I didn't get proceeds from the bet but what I achieved that day just simply by existing is invaluable in terms of what we're trying to do for American diplomacy for the, if you will, the realization of our values and the showcasing of our values in a tangible way. We're showing that the state department is and should be a full representation of the country in which we live. And that country is the United States.
We can talk about the law and what the law requires but ultimately what the law needs to do and should be doing and creates the space to do is change hearts and minds. So my work really marries legal principles and concepts with the changing hearts and minds piece.
So I bring my identity, as I said, to work, and my work is not just the 8:00 to 5:00 or the 10:00 to 8:00 in the office and at events, it is a lifestyle. The Foreign Service is a lifestyle. It is a life and often it is not at home.
As Ronza said, not only is there a lack of physical infrastructure in many countries across the globe, there's also a huge difference in attitudes. And we can't take these conversations for granted. Because the conversation that we're having here is a conversation that now through the embassy community and DACA, we're also having there. What does it mean to be diverse? What does the word "equity" mean? How do we level the playing field for all so that everyone has a fair shot? What does it mean to truly respect the human dignity of all? What is acceptance? What is inclusion? The diversity council at DACA is the I dare council and it is inclusion, diversity, acceptance, respect, equity. But the fact that I come from where I have been which is the United States with the immigrant experience, the Muslim experience, the disability and blind civil rights experience is what helps inform my perspective which is comprised of not just Americans but also local staff. Every day that we interact is a day that I'm educating and informing.
The more there are like me, the better we are off as a country. And that's really the value of these conversations. I'll pause there.
SAFAYA FAWZI: Thank you so much, Mariyam. And Ronza. Very inspiring and not the word inspiring. Very moving in terms of the ways that these conversations have played out in your communities and your conversations at work and outside of work. So definitely really important to bring just I would say the intersectionality of these different forces to the forefront. I really liked Mariyam, the way disability is viewed in many Muslim communities, in the U.S. is mirrored in how it is viewed in the U.S. culture generally. There are a lot of the same challenges. But because of color, because of people who are immigrants, because of people from other diverse backgrounds, there is this idea that it is more backward or more problematic when really it is the same level of problematic across the board. And that is something that I think is really important to just call out within this conversation is that every community in the U.S. in many ways, not as knowledgeable as they should be around disability. And that relates to U.S. history with disability inclusion which has been on a trajectory and taken a long time to be part of the mainstream unfortunately.
I realize Nash didn't get a chance to respond to the question or the questions. So I do want to give him a chance to do that. We had one last one and I want to make sure that I put it in the chat. Which is quite general so maybe Nash, you can get us started on this one as well as any other responses you had to the other questions. But our last question before we move into Q&A is there other advice or closing thoughts around engaging Muslims with disabilities across the board, in the workplace, in your communities, for those on the call who may not know or may not have engaged with Muslims with disabilities as much. So feel free, Nash, to take that question or any of the others that we've discussed and share your thoughts. If you don't mind kicks us off for the last portion.
NASHIRU ABDULAI: Hello again, everyone. Like I said at the outset, I see you, Mariyam, have worked with Mariyam. I appreciate Ronza's thoughts as well. They really hit home with me. Being Muslim, sharing about being Muslim, about being covered, being blind. So that was very moving to me and it shows that yes, people with disabilities can do that. I love stories like that. I think we need more of those! And I think that will affect the future.
In terms of organizations, I think that there are wonderful organizations such as LUCIAN and many fail to realize that people with disabilities are here. You've got the panelists here and we can lead! And we are empowered! Just because I have a disability doesn't mean that I cannot lead or manage.
So I think it's important that people see people with disabilities in leadership positions, seeing that they can achieve and can do. And for example with Global Deaf Muslim, people are often shocked to learn that I am in charge of that organization and I am a deaf person. I think it is key that people understand that. Hearing people do — are often in leadership positions and are the ones on the forefront giving presentations. But a person who is deaf can. A person who is blind can. Perhaps they've never interacted with someone with such a disability. But with the right support, it can happen.
As more individuals are seen in those roles, I think perceptions will change. And I recognize that people see that there are individuals with disabilities. I would say put them in leadership positions. And provide feedback. I think that's another important thing as well. Providing feedback to individuals so that change can happen. Attitudes can change. And I think that's the best feedback — people with disabilities, people who are living the experiences like you, Mariyam, Ronza and myself because you have the skills. You are able to achieve. You can lead!
So it is the misperceptions that we need to change. People's attitudes, thinking that people who are deaf, people who are blind are unable to do things or unable to be in charge or unable to lead or unable to marry. That's definitely problematic. I see that as a deaf individual in terms of being matched with someone when they find out oh, so and so is deaf? Oh, I don't think so.
There were many times I went through that and because of my deafness, I was turned away. So in terms of translating the Koran into sign language, that's a worthwhile endeavor for us as well. I think that started in 2013? And the goal was to translate the entire Koran just as Christians have translated the Bible into sign language and that was done in 1983. So now we need to do that. And that project has been on going since 2013. It is not yet completed. There's a group of hearing individuals saying no. This is wrong. It needs to be translated from Arabic into English. But we, as deaf individuals, who know English and know ASL, we feel like having it signed, the meaning of the terms, the concepts, the phrases, the words, that is what is key.
So there are, of course, varying levels of education in the deaf community and levels of literacy. But signing will help. And I think it needs to be done. Yes, that say it needs to be done from Arabic and those who think it can be done from the English translation as well. So we need to decide — and I think it was a couple of years ago — we decided that we needed to come up with an Islamic sign language. And people from about 45 different countries getting involved and standardizing some of the signs that are being used and building from that. And hopefully that will come into play with the translation as well. And making that a more global effort. And once again, going back to the idea of changing attitudes. That is key.
So if we can change attitudes, if we can do that, then we'll be in great shape. Collaborating to make the changes happen. I don't want to be known as the only deaf person working on this. I'm sure certain individuals don't want to be thought of as the only blind person working on this. I think that together we can do it.
SAFAYA FAWZI: Thank you, Nash. Other thoughts from the panel before we move to Q&A? Any closing advice, thoughts around engaging Muslims with disabilities or anything that the group should know or anything else you just want to share?
MARIYAM CEMENTWALA: Safaya, let me share on the chat a resource page that, during my time, we put together at the Office of International Religious Freedom on faith, COVID and disability.
And it's really advice to faith communities and faith leaders who can be, in some cases, more influential than government officials in certain communities and countries. And it is advice to them about how to engage with persons with disabilities.
And again, I come back to that point that while it was a conversation about Huj got us working, we realized the issue is broader. And it doesn't just encompass the Muslim community. The Muslim community is not alone and not isolated with respect to stereotypes and prejudices and misconceptions. Every community has that. One thing that you talked about that I want to pick out is that in the United States in particular and in other countries as well, that are not Muslim majority, we stick out like a sore thumb because you're already a small community in perhaps a small town or even in a larger city. And in that small community, then you've got a Muslim member of a congregation or a mosque with a disability. So obviously there is this magnification going on when you're under the microscope. But that doesn't mean that the problems or the attitudes or the challenges are any worse for me, at least in my case, than they would be for somebody else who's part of, for instance, a small Mormon church in another small town. A lot of the attitudes and misconceptions are often the same. And they're centered around misconceptions around disability, not necessarily around faith. And they're centered around culture and not around religious tenants or this religious text or book says.
Sometimes there are issues but oftentimes not. Oftentimes there are workarounds in our head because faith in itself is quite flexible. And quite accommodating.
So what we did at the Office of International Religious Freedom is used COVID as a launching point and started a campaign called "every life is worthy." And in the context of that social media campaign last July around the ADA's 30th we launched this resource page. But the resource page has good advice about inclusive practice and engagement for any faith community. Not just Muslim communities.
The purpose, again, was the idea that there should be nothing about us with us. So my advice with respect to engagement is to listen and to learn from the person with the lived experience. And that means that faith leaders have to do a lot of listening and learning. And sometimes we feel like the onus is on us to teach and that may be true. But it is a dynamic process and it is a process that we really don't have a choice but to engage in. If we want to leave the world a little bit better than how we found it, then we're going to be at the table and we will be required to be in these conversations in the mix.
With respect to advice in the workplace and engaging with or accommodating Muslims with disabilities, I would say three things. We need to think about sacred space. We have a new employee at state called mosaic. Muslims with disabilities. I think I mentioned this earlier on. It has a big tent so interns, contractors, sworn civil service, we're all a part of it. We're trying to inject in the department as we talk about diversity issues, a dialogue and one of the issues is sacred spaces for prayer and things like that. And my perspective is that when we think about sacred spaces or think about things like emotion, are those spaces accessible? Are they accessible to all? Because if they're physically accessible, it also reflects our attitude and our approach.
So first thing is thinking about those sacred spaces.
The second thing — Nash put it well — put people in leadership positions. But there I'm going to say don't just think about recruitment. How do we get more diverse voices in the room? How do we promote them? How do we empower them? How do we retain them? How do we create a culture that says to them I want you here and you belong. One of my experiences early on in a workplace was that I asked a question of a superior, seeking advice and feedback. The question was how can I — what can I do better generally. What are some of the things I can improve upon? The answer that I got was oh, you should do a better job fitting in. And I thought huh, I wonder which way I should fit in. So I assumed that it was about my Muslimness. I said I'm very Muslim, aren't I? Thinking I don't drink. That must be the issue. The person said well, yeah, you are. And you're also blind and so you don't see facial expressions and things like that. So you should just do a better job socializing and fitting in.
So the onus was very clearly put on me to adapt to a pale, white, male culture. That's not true of any specific agency. It is true of all institution and workplaces, generally, I think, across the board in the United States. Because this is why we are having conversations on diversity, equity and inclusion. Because we know that we need change. George Floyd's death was a trigger. But this has been a historic, long standing question. And the question is "where are we and where do we need to go and how do we include"? So this is not news. And we need to be part of the change making.
The onus is on these institutions to be inclusive and welcoming and to retain. And for us to help these institutions do that, we're going to have to be a part of the conversation. So that's my advice. Across the board. One, think about sacred spaces. Two, it is not just a physical change. It is an attitudinal one. And three, we need to do a better job in terms of retention and therefore promotion and therefore institutional change making. And I'll pause there. Because I know there will be audience questions that we'll want to take. Thanks.
SAFAYA FAWZI: Thank you so much, Mariyam. We have just ten minutes left. So I will open the virtual chat box. If folks would like to write anything down. But I'll use the first couple of minutes to share some closing thoughts.
ZAHEER MASKATIA: The only thing I have to say to add — I don't have that much more to say to what has been very eloquently said. I just want to underline yes, when engaging with Muslim folks or any folks with disabilities, ask more assume. Ask questions. Ask questions more, assume less. That's all I have to say about that.
RONZA OTHMAN: I really don't have that much more to add either. I think everybody before me did a really good job. One thing we didn't touch on which I feel like I'm talking about all the time is that the notion of service animals for whatever type of disability, not just blindness. Service animals in Islam and that they're diametrically opposed to one another which is a fallacy. If people take something away, please take that away. Islam does not prohibit the use of service animals. There are some complications related to sacred spaces and the functionality of the service animals and things along those lines in specific aspects of sacred place but I would love — we could have a seminar just on that.
SAFAYA FAWZI: If you had a couple of thoughts, that was the first question in the chat box, actually. It is like you knew it! As you were talking, it came in. Along the lines of what Mariyam was saying about faith based barriers, accessibility and flexibility, can the panelists share perspectives on service dogs in Islam. You want to chat more about that?
RONZA OTHMAN: Sure. So funny because I get that question more than any other question. There is a lot in history and the news about Muslim cabdrivers or Lyft drivers that are refusing to take passengers with service animals. That's by in large based on cultural norms, not religious expectations. Islam, the scripture we depend on is the Koran and then, of course, real life teachings of the prophet Mohammed and there's a lot in text about the use of animals, working animals. So guard dogs, for example. And herding dogs, for example. And that they are not only permissible but they're appropriate in many sorts of circumstances.
I think we have the challenge of interpreting a 5th, 6th century text in a 21st century world so that does mean there are gaps in interpretations and cultures sort of permeate what people view as religious tenants but the real challenge with service animals relates to prayer. There is something called NAJASA which means lack of appropriate or sufficient — when I go to prepare to pray, I have to engage in this cleansing ritual which I talked about.
Before it is water. Not that complicated. But if I, for example, have physical contact with a dog, I lose that — I have to repeat that cleansing ritual. But the same is true if I have physical contact with a man who is not my relative. And yet Uber and Lyft drivers aren't banning men from getting in their vehicle.
By in large, this is a misconception, there are some cultural, some fear, some anxiety aspects that have been incorporated into the common thought process and expectation that this is a religious mandate when in reality, it is nothing of the sort.
SAFAYA FAWZI: Thank you, Ronza. That's very helpful. You did touch on another issue that there was a question about in the chat box. Anyone is welcome to answer, of course. But the question is you all touched upon the issue of gender identity. Can you speak further on the intersectionality of gender, religion and disability in your work? That's welcome for anyone to take on.
RONZA OTHMAN: I can start. The gender identity is one of the evolving things in Islam. Islam is one — it is the youngest of the Abrahamic religions and it is one of the younger religions generally so what happens is new immigrants, they hold tighter to the — their cultural background and things like that.
So religion, too, the closer you are to the unveiling of that religion, the more prescriptive people are going to view things. So gender identity is something that really is evolving. I recently participated in a roundtable at a GLBT mosque, one that was open to GLBT people. I think there are a lot of non openness from different spaces. I met a Muslim who was transgender for the first time six or seven months ago. So I think that creating a safe space for people to be out is new. It is happening and I think there's some reconciliation happening in terms of the scripture, reading the black letter of the scripture versus interpreting in modern society. I think that's kind of going to be evolving. Gender is a thing. There are some gender mismatches, some gender norms that are challenging in general. One of the things that I was asking Nash in the chat to expand upon because I'm not sure who's not Muslim or engaged in Muslim prayer would understand, why is it important — why is it even a problem that a sign language interpreter wouldn't be at the front of a room during a prayer service?
Muslim prayer services, they have the person leading the prayer is a man. Usually. If you have men in the room. The person leading the prayer is a man. He is the Imam which mean stand in front of. So to have anybody — and then followed by men. And women are behind them or maybe a different floor below them or above them. But there's segregation in prayer.
So having a female interpreter to support the needs of a male congregant, where do you put that female interpreter so that they're not in front of other people that are praying? The other challenge is that nothing is supposed to be in front of people that are praying. So it is not just — it is not necessarily limited to gender but also nobody's supposed to walk in front of you while you're praying, for example.
So figuring out how do we balance those requirements and traditions along with an accommodations that a person may need. If I'm a woman and I need a sign language interpreter but the interpreter is provided in the front by the men, I won't necessarily see it. There's also some expectations around when you pray, you are supposed to look down. You're supposed to lower your gaze. If I need an interpreter to communicate back to me what's being verbalized, my gaze isn't looking down. There's a lot of growth that we need to do. A lot of inclusion that we need to work on in different areas but that's just one example.
SAFAYA FAWZI: Thank you so much, Ronza. We have just two minutes left. So I do want to just be cognizant of time. If there are any last questions. I don't see anything in the chat box. If anybody would like to speak further to the question about intersectionality and gender, take it away. Hard to talk about in two minutes, I know. Nash was going to say something. His interpreter has to step out.
NASHIRU ABDULAI: To wrap up, like when the Imam is giving a presentation, there is distance between the interpreter and the person leading the service. But when they put them off to the side, then it's hard to see both. And it's like playing table tennis. You're trying to look one way and the other. So when they place people on two opposite sides of the room, that's very hard. And then it is even worse when the interpreter is female and they place her in the back of the room. That's where it is not accessible to deaf individuals. The interpreter needs to be in the front close to the person who's speaking so the line of sight is better for the attendees.
I think that's one issue that we struggle with as deaf attendees at such services. I just wanted to suggest that you keep in mind that an interpreter is not there as a distraction but there to provide service and access.
SAFAYA FAWZI: Thank you, Nash. It is an evolving conversation in the Muslim community. Mariyam, you had one more thing in our last few seconds.
MARIYAM CEMENTWALA: I alluded to this a little bit. The old boy's network is still a thing. As a Muslim woman who covers, right, you have a lot of assumptions made. Some are true. Some are not. I think that for — it was a staff member who told me my predecessor was a Muslim male and dressed in a suit and a tie and just very debonair. And I wore the hijab which she said was nice looking but it made me stick out in a way that it didn't make him stick out within the embassy community. So I just wanted to share that you have that additional layer as a Muslim woman. And then you add the disability layer to it and other layers to it and so the differences grow. But on the other hand, I've used the hijab and being a Muslim woman to go into spaces that men couldn't go when I served in Saudi Arabia. So it is a matter of perspective and leveraging what can be perceived as a weakness by others into a strength. I'll stop there since we're out of time.
SAFAYA FAWZI: Absolutely. Very powerful. Thank you, Mariyam. I took some notes on everyone's great points that they made. There are some links in the chat box that were posted as well. So I just want to thank everybody, especially our panelists today for their time and for their amazing contributions. Thank you so much. And really hope to continue this conversation and thanks to NFB for hosting the dialogue. Thank you all again and take care.