This is being provided in a rough-draft format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings
SARAH MALAIER: Hello, everyone. We are excited to talk about how changes in transportation are impacting accessibility and equity for people with disabilities. I will pass it to our other presenters to get it started.
SWATHA NANDHAKUMAR: Hi, y'all. I'm Swatha Nandhakumar. I am with the American Council of the Blind. I am a young south Asian woman with long black hair wearing a gray suit and a black shirt. So this is where the PROWAG guidelines come in. They cover the built environment, so things like curb ramps, tactical indicators, crosswalks. These are all covered under PROWAG. DOT finalized their rule on PROWAG last August. This rule is the official promulgation of regulations by DoJ and DoT. And as of right now, the rules are still pending so it's still waiting on final regulations to come out spring or middle of 2024. Next slide.
So in PROWAG, these cover things like pedestrian signals or APSs. What APSs do is they emit a tone through a series of beeps to let a person who is blind know when to cross the street.
Also the APSs will emit a tactile feature where if you put your hand on the device itself, it will vibrate to let you know when to cross the street. In the final PROWAG rule, these are included. The rule states that any modification to a street crossing or to a pedestrian right of way necessitates installing an APS where there was none before. Modifications necessitate these guidelines. The American Council of the Blind wrote to the DoJ asking for a stronger mandate on APSs. A person who is deafblind really doesn't have access to a street scape or safety to cross the street if you can't see or hear a signal.
In Chicago, there was a lawsuit where ACB affiliate in Chicago had to sue the city of Chicago for failure to install APSs at thousands of crosswalks and intersections. In Chicago, it's important to have access to be able to know when to cross the street or when it's safe to do so. It's loud in a city with ambient noise that can distract you or impede on your ability to hear cars moving. In this case, DoJ actually intervened on the side of ACB. The basis for this lawsuit is under the ADA. Under the ADA, they argued that because there was no accessible way to cross the street or know when it is safe to do so safely, they they're essentially being denied access to effective communication or services offered by the city.
Also in a case in New York, there's another case. And these two cases, both plaintiffs won and the cities have to install APSs in their streets and crosswalks. In New York, they installed APSs in the next 10 years. And then have all of them done within 15 years in the city. In Chicago, the case is pending. But there is strong precedent and a strong case for accessible signals. And the PROWAG guidelines protect this. Danica?
DANICA GONZALVES: Hi, my name is Danica Gonzalves, the advocacy attorney at Paralyzed Veterans of America. A white woman with long brown hair with a blue dress and black sweater. This panel is the future of accessible transportation or transportation accessibility, but we're going to talk about a very old type of transportation, and that is trains. Specifically Amtrak. By raising hands, how many people have ridden Amtrak? Wow. A lot. Okay. How many people have had accessibility issues with Amtrak? Still several hands.
Amtrak has been around for a very long time, and they are part federally funded and also under the Americans with Disabilities Act, but there are many, many barriers that people with disabilities face when it comes to Amtrak. Paralyzed Veterans of America, the organization I work for, or PVA, we're a membership organization of over 15,000 veterans with a spinal cord injury or disease. A lot of our members because of that use a mobility device like a wheelchair, power wheelchair, or other type of assistive device. So when it comes to Amtrak specifically for mobility device users, their aisles are very narrow. So when it comes to one of our members going on an Amtrak train, they are going to be secluded to one part of the train and not able to go throughout the whole train like a passenger who does not use a mobility device can.
When it comes to other accessibility issues, we are now booking the tickets on the website or on an app, and these also have accessibility issues. There are also many -- I won't go through the whole train because we could just put in a whole list of how many accessibility issues there are with Amtrak. But there has been some steps to try to increase the compliance at least with the ADA side. Amtrak is in the process of developing a new bi-level fleet, meaning a train that has two levels, hence the bi-level, and these are going to be used for long distance trips, so not necessarily -- well, not at all the D.C. to Baltimore if any of y'all rode the Amtrak through here, but it would be more the multi-day, if you're going to be staying in a sleeper car or be on the Amtrak for a long time and you actually want to have a place to sleep, a place to go get food, etc. These are the new trains that they are designing.
When it's coming to the new design of trains because once Amtrak makes a train set, a brand new train set, that train set will be on the rails for decades. So this is our chance to put in the word in the voice of the disability community to make sure that these new trains that are going to be on the rails for decades -- let me repeat that, decades -- are actually going to be accessible.
So there has been some steps for federal oversight for the Amtrak stations as well. When it comes to the Amtrak stations, there are a couple different ones. There are the ones that Amtrak specifically owns and operates, and there are also stations that they do not actually own. But in 2020, the DoJ did settle with Amtrak to make sure that they are making their stations accessible. I don't know if you've heard of the ASAP grants, the All Stations Accessibility project grants, but those are to put legacy rail stations into meeting the ADA requirements. So this is a separate DoJ settlement. But there are also grants and funding for other train stations to try to bring these very old ways of traveling into meeting the actual compliance. Just this January, there was the bipartisan Think Differently bill that was introduced to require Amtrak to submit regular reports to Congress on how this is going. Their progress of what is coming into compliance at their stations.
The Access Board for a very, very, very long time has been working on railcar guidelines as far as accessibility requirements. We have been told that those potentially might come out soon for several years, so we'll see. Access Board is very busy. But that is on their agenda, probably low priority.
Flip to the next one. So with these new bi-level long distance fleets, Amtrak put in a request for equivalent facilitation. What that means is that they are putting in an application to the Federal Railroad Administration saying we want to use these designs that are different than the actual ADA standards but will provide the same or greater accessibility. So they were putting in this application last year, and they held what they allegedly called a public hearing because that is one of the requirements before they can actually put in the application. It was not advertised on their website. Very few people heard about it. We heard about it as advocates because we meet with Amtrak quite frequently. I went in person and there was about four attendees. And this was a big deal, but they were not forthcoming that this is what this meeting was about.
They used this meeting as a check box for their application. When this occurred, because the meeting itself was not accessible, CCD cochair, transportation task force cochairs sent letters telling Amtrak, you're not meeting the requirements, you're not doing the accessibility things and making sure that the public is heard. And this is actually important not just for Amtrak but a lot of other grants. They are required to have these public hearings where people can come and give their voices and say what needs to be done. Definitely go to those, because those are an opportunity to actually give your voice and not many people show up.
So you can have your voice actually heard. Well, Amtrak decided they were not going to have a new meeting, but they did get that application approved. And so the focus on accessibility is going to be moving forward. How can we make sure when they're creating these new trains that they're moving but their stations are accessible, seen, meeting ADA compliance, or going above and beyond.
So with the application, they did increase the number of accessible bedroom spaces. They are going to have accessible sleeper cars on the first level. Because that was something they were initially putting out there is that they would be on the second level only but then we're still secluding people who need accessible rooms to a certain part of the train. So they did make that change. And they are actually putting 32-inch wide aisles in the accessible cars.
They're also supposed to have these accessible cars be close to the other amenities. This would be the cafe car, etc. To make sure that people have access to all the amenities of the train.
But there is still continued advocacy that needs to occur. There are a lot of questions on how they are going to accomplish this. Because right now it's just words. We haven't seen designs. So we just need to make sure that advocates are staying in touch with what is happening to make sure that we can continue to do our advocacy and make sure that access is being met, ADA standards and going beyond. And that we need to have our voices be heard. So at CCD, transportation task force cochairs are staying on top of this all the time, but everyone has the opportunity to be an advocate so we really welcome that everyone continue to do what you're doing if you are in advocacy or get involved as much as you can.
I'm going to pass it to Sarah.
SARAH MALAIER: Great. So we're really moving through all of the transportation modes here because the CCD transportation task force does cover a lot of different modes. So we've gone from walking, we looked at trains, and now I'm going to look at some kind of technology-driven modes. Rideshares, autonomous vehicles, and advanced air mobility. So I think everybody is aware that there's been a lot of technological disruption in the transportation industry. And in a lot of ways that's been incredibly beneficial to the disability community. It's brought a lot of greater access to on-demand transportation, it's made it easier to track where vehicles are and get pickups, but it's also created some really persistent barriers that continue to exist or get worse. This failure to address barriers in existing modes we're seeing is translating into lack of accessibility in other innovations that we're seeing in the transportation space.
So first, in ridesharing. For a lot of people who don't use a mobility device or service animal, ridesharing has made on-demand transportation significantly easier to obtain. It is often much easier to pull out a phone and call an Uber than it is to flag down a taxi. In a lot of cases, that translates into significant improvements in access to transportation. At the same time, this is a mode that's well over a decade old now. It's prevalent across the country.
But it continues to present some pretty significant challenges. The first of those is service animal denials. And I think for a lot of folks, this will come as no surprise. But I would be willing to bet that just about every service animal user who uses User and Lyft has been denied. There are YouTube videos of drivers trying to teach other drives how to discreetly deny rides to service animal users without getting caught. It's a pretty significant issue, and AFB partnered with the Guide Dogs for the Blind on a 2022 study on the experiences of guide dog users, and the fear of access denial makes users hesitant to bring their animals along, especially if they're in a hurry and need get a rideshare very quickly.
In addition, the publicity around guide dog access barriers in ridesharing has also contributed to some people's reluctance to get a guide dog themselves. So this very real barrier is also impacting the way that people choose to travel within their community. And there also remains a significant issue with the lack of wheelchair-accessible vehicles. As an example, Lyft only offers wheelchair-accessible vehicles in about nine U.S. cities. In the rest of the country, they refer riders to taxi companies or paratransit service providers, but these providers are not necessarily connected on the app and these providers do not always provide equivalent on-demand service to what nondisabled users would receive on the app.
And it seems like this is a pretty significant and clear violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act, but the process of addressing this has seemed to be on a case by case, city by city, basis, so there's a real reluctance to address systemic issues across this mode and to kind of see the ADA as something not designed for the future even though it very much is. To put it in one final perspective, when Uber originally rolled out its wheelchair-accessible vehicles, they were very proud to tout the fact that 50% of their users would have access to wheelchair-accessible vehicles. And while that may have increased in the intervening time, it's just a signal of kind of the reluctance to make this a national issue.
Why are we talking about ridesharing? Because we know it will continue to be a big part of our lives. But also because the failure to complete the accessibility of these modes is I think setting the wrong expectation for future modes. And instead of acting in the spirit and letter of the Americans with Disabilities Act, a lot of the disruptors in the transportation industry continue to largely ignore the needs of people with disabilities.
So autonomous vehicles. Brian in the plenary this morning said something along the lines of AI companies often make claims that using AI technology is beneficial to people with disabilities because it promotes bias. Well, we've also heard a lot of claims about autonomous vehicles. Autonomous vehicles are going to be the answer to transportation for people with disabilities. And they may be. There's a long way to go in the development of these vehicles and the deployment of them across the country. But there are some pretty significant obstacles at this point in time.
The CCD transportation task force believes that promise and safety of autonomous vehicles will only be realized if both the vehicles and the surrounding infrastructure are fully accessible and the safety elements consider the needs of all people with disabilities. So what does it mean to have an accessible autonomous vehicle? It's looking at the vehicle comprehensively. You've got a human-machine interface. Any screen in the vehicle should be accessible. The app that you use to order the vehicle should be accessible. You should be able to find the vehicle independently, regardless of whether you're blind or Deaf or deafblind, have a mobility disability, have a cognitive disability. There should be processes/mechanisms in place for everybody to be able to access the vehicle.
On an infrastructure perspective, we need to have safe pick up and drop off practices and safe places to do that. A concern when Cruise was still operating on the streets of California was that quite often the vehicles would not pull over to the curb. So then you had passengers getting on and off in the lane of traffic, and it may be that that was happening for safety reasons, maybe the vehicle was not -- they were not confident in the vehicle's ability to pull over to the curb at that time. But it also created some significant accessibility issues because is that vehicle then pulling over in a place where the curb is accessible? Are you pulling over right into parked cars or into a bike lane? Is it another lane of traffic or a right turn lane or something like that that a passenger has to step into, cross, and get into the sidewalk?
That's just one example of infrastructure accessibility that will need to be complementary with the accessibility of the autonomous vehicles, creating spaces that people and vehicles can interact. And then there's the wheelchair-accessible vehicle. It's not just in ridesharing. It will also be in autonomous vehicles. So we are looking for these vehicles to have ramps and lifts, handrails, whatever the appropriate turning radius is, independent autonomous securement.
These are pretty challenging questions. And research is underway to address them, but there's certainly not enough research and development being done yet. So I think it's fair to say that the most accessible autonomous vehicles operating today on the street still require manual securement and boarding with the assistance of somebody who is riding along in the vehicle to help somebody who uses a wheelchair access the vehicle. So where does this put us? I think this means that we need both a legislative and a regulatory framework. And this is a cross-agency regulatory framework. Existing law, including existing proposed law, does not create the mandate or the urgency for accessible autonomous vehicle standards. And insufficient federal funding is flowing to make sure that the steps are in place to lead to more of a accessible regulatory framework.
There are a variety of agencies that will need to be involved in moving us towards more accessible, the more accessible framework. So looking at those accessibility standards, whether that's wheelchair accessibility, infrastructure, human-machine interface, we're probably going to need standards from the Access Board. The Access Board does not currently have the resources to work on this. They also do not have a direct mandate to produce standards. And so that's one place where the legislative framework could then lead to a regulatory framework. And they also would benefit from additional research produced by NHTSA and federal bodies around challenges over securement, accessibility, and what does it look like to have an actual accessible vehicle that is safe. And it would probably be beneficial to have guidance on how the ADA applies to autonomous vehicle ridesharing services, just to make sure that where the ADA does apply, that it is very clear what companies must do to comply with the ADA.
The National Highway Safety Transportation -- Traffic Safety Administration? Transportation Safety Administration? NHTSA sets safety rules for vehicles. Then there's a question of what is the role of NHTSA in creating accessibility rules as they're creating safety standards? And I think as autonomous vehicles upend the vehicle space, we're going to see ways in which AI becomes a part of the safety mechanism, where we're going to need to be thinking about accessibility in terms of safety for all people, and ensuring that safety rules consider people with disabilities.
And last, I mean, I'm sure there are quite a few other agencies involved, but the federal transit agency will also have a role to play as we look into autonomous transit buses. These vehicles will need to be accessible. They're going to need to have autonomous and independent wheelchair loading and securement. And then there's a really big question that remains to be answered is there autonomous buses need to have attendants to provide assistance to people with disabilities or other passengers, or are passengers going to have to bring their own attendants when using these vehicles? Are people going to be able to secure themselves without an attendant?
So I think these questions will be a significant discussion when we're talking about AVs and transit if that's not proactively addressed. The transportation task force sent a letter last summer that was well received by both republicans and democrats on the House Energy and Commerce committee that laid out ways to change a proposed bill on autonomous vehicles and set a more comprehensive legislative framework. Our letter did not cover everything, but it addressed the proposal that the Energy and Commerce committee was starting to put together.
So some of the things that we called for is we certainly want to retain nondiscrimination in licensing and insurance. This is a provision that has shown up in a lot of different AV bills over the last 6-8 years. And we believe it is likely to pass. We want to keep that there. And we think it's important that people with disabilities are participating in any highly automated vehicles advisory committee.
But then we think that the existing proposals for legislation don't go far enough. So what do we need? We need a disability-specific accessibility, accessible safety framework. And that has to be a rulemaking at some point. We need to get to a point where there's a rulemaking that says that vehicles need to be safe for people with disabilities. One of the proposals in this autonomous vehicle legislation has been that manufacturers will self-assess their safety. Well, if they are self-assessing their safety, then they need to self-assess their disability accessibility and safety.
And then when we're thinking about what the safety standards are, the federal motor vehicle safety standards should be updated with accessibility standards and should include safety for people with disabilities who are using wheelchairs without in any way creating the situation where manufacturers say, well, we haven't figured out how to secure wheelchairs so we're not going to have it because then it doesn't meet the safety standards. So there has to be this -- that's part of the reason that there needs to be research, there needs to be standards, and there needs to be a real focus on including people with disabilities throughout this regulatory framework.
Another consideration for NHTSA in the federal motor vehicle standards and their other regulations is that AI is the driver. There's been a lot of talk about AI today. While I think one space that a lot of us, you know, at least can kind of dream of AI is autonomous vehicles. So there will need to be regulations around the quality and the safety and the decision making that automated driving systems have in creating a safety roadway environment. NHTSA rules in the past have not done a good job of protecting people outside of the vehicle. Quite often they are focused on occupant safety, airbags and that sort of thing. There are not good standards for, well, what happens if you collide with a pedestrian. And that has some pretty significant impacts on the safety of the vehicles on the street.
If AI is the driver, we are going to need to make sure that we are considering the role of AI as the driver both for the people inside of the car and for people who are walking or biking or using wheelchairs on the street. So that inclusive safety decision making. Our letter also addressed issues around preemption and forced arbitration. It is critically important in our view that autonomous vehicles, that to the extent that states require autonomous vehicles or localities, in particular cities, require autonomous vehicles operating on their streets are safe and accessible for people with disabilities, that those laws are not then preempted by a lesser federal law.
And in a similar vein, we do not want any forced arbitration of laws like the ADA that protect the safety and access for people with disabilities. Our final request said Congress establish funding for the Access Board to draft AI standards which ideally would be adopted by DoJ and Department of Transportation once they were developed as well. So I know I'm running a little long, but the final need around autonomous vehicles is greater urgency on research and development for accessibility solutions. We need a federal framework for distributing the responsibility and resources for accessibility and disability-inclusive safety standards across the federal government, and we need a commitment by industry and state and local governments to employ AVs that include accessibility in the vehicle concurrently with inaccessible AVs or in lieu of altogether. We would love to see fully accessible AVs. We think that would make a huge difference for people with disabilities.
And last, autonomous air mobility. We just talked about AVs on the ground. We would have flying cars. It's kind of amazing that we're talking about that when we barely have autonomous cars, but we are quickly moving. So what is this? Quite often this refers to vertical takeoff and landing vehicles that are highly automated and electric. So these are aircraft that take off from a small space. Could be on a rooftop, helicopter mode, transitions into an airplane for flying, and back into helicopter mode for landing. These are often, when they carry passengers, they are not usually very large vehicles. And they operate out of vertiports much like a helipad. Actually, I don't know what they will look like. I haven't gotten to experience these. But they will be used both for human transportation and for freight and often in a suburb or airport into an urban center. Some of the current investors are American Airlines, UPS, Boeing, Toyota, Mercedes-Benz.
And like helicopters, these vehicles are not currently accessible which means we need some serious research development and potentially regulatory action to make these vehicles more inclusive. There is an interagency working group made up of agencies like the FAA, NASA, the Department of Defense, and some other transportation agencies as well. And it's intended to advance knowledge, focus policy efforts, and responsibly plan for the introduction of advanced air mobility.
And yet accessibility is hardly ever mentioned in anything that they do. I think it is on one slide that they have. And they are producing this plan, and it will go to Congress, about how this new system should be developed. I will say they talk significantly more about the noise that vertiports might create than they do about accessibility for people with disabilities. So disability needs to be a part of the discussion. It needs to be part of design standards and guidelines. And down the road, we are probably going to need additional legislative frameworks to make sure that people with disabilities don't have to wait decades to be able to use flying taxis, much like we have seen with airplanes and Air Carrier Access Act.
So in sum, existing disability laws clear that new technology is not an excuse for allowing discrimination in transportation. At the same time, there's a significant need for a more specific regulatory framework for vehicle accessibility and nondiscrimination in safety and automated systems. Now that I've talked about these emerging roads, I'll turn it over to Tyler.
TYLER BECK: Yeah, Sarah talks about flying taxis and I have to bring us back down to earth with the realities. I'm Tyler Beck, advocacy coordinator for Epilepsy Foundation. White male with glasses in a blue suit, pink shirt, and short brown hair. To jump right into it, before we continue to look at where we can go, I think it is important to start with where we are right now. In July of 2022, the Passengers with Disabilities Bill of Rights was put in place by the Department of Transportation. They have been clear this is a living document they want to add to and see grow. At this point, though, there are only 10 provisions. You see some of them there. Passengers have a right to be treated with dignity and respect, receive information in an accessible way, and also they have the right to travel with an assistive device and service animal. That's it, right? We fixed it.
That's not the case. Even since July of 2022, we continue to see increasing cases of people not being allowed to have their service animal on a plane, problems with TSA, or if they do get on the plane, now there's a situation where a person is waiting for their wheelchair after the plane landed and they were forcibly removed because their wheelchair was not ready for them so they were laid on the ground in the middle of an airport because staff were not trained. I think the biggest thing we continue to see is that it's great to have all of these provisions and great we're seeing more input from the community and everything else, but as long as that happens even once, that's not acceptable.
We are not a membership organization like some others up here. But a lot of people with epilepsy call in with concerns and issues around, yes, this worked for me this time. And they talked about oh, they're so lucky I was able to board and have my rights this one time. As long as people can't predict their travel, there's real fear there of will I get my rights I'm entitled to and will the staff members, think of all the people, organizations, staff, that you interact with during a day of travel. Will they all know your rights and be able to help you in the way that you deserve?
That's been a real tricky part for us and where we as both the task force and also individually as an organization have tried to continue to look through. So we are appreciative that this bill of rights is important. It's on the Department of Transportation's website. Read through it if you haven't seen it. You should always know your rights. But that is a good starting point. And the other big piece of legislation we want to talk about is the Air Carrier Access Act. That one was passed in 1986. So put that in perspective. It was signed by Ronald Reagan. Flight and transportation has changed a bit since he was in charge. But that does lay out what air carriers may and may not do. They cannot refuse transportation or require advanced notice of travel for accommodations, providing assistance with boarding, deplaning, all of which is, great, okay, again, we fixed it, right?
No. To steal from before, raise your hand if you have flown before. Raise your hand if you have personally had an accessibility issue on a flight as well. I'm going to call that just about one for one as well. The issues continue to happen, be real, and get more frequent. Part of that is because people are starting to pay more attention and get more media coverage around these which is helpful and we want to continue to fan that flame. But also because as long as training remains an issue for staff at all levels this, problem will continue to exist. And we have a person with epilepsy that we work closely at the Epilepsy Foundation who was in an adaptive stroller and tried to go through TSA with it and was completely blocked, told you cannot get on the plane with that, we have to be able to take the whole thing apart, search it, all of these things. These were people, again, they worked with us as advocates, they know their rights, no, actually, you don't, and they were just told, no, that won't work.
One of them, the exact quote from the TSA person said "This person doesn't look disabled enough. They can get up and walk." As long as that continues, we will continue to have these issues. Now, with that very grim picture of where we are right now, where are we going? The next slide. We have some recent rulemaking that is helping and trying to add dress some of these issues. There was a rule last year passed making sure there's an accessible lavatory on twin-aisle aircraft that was updated recently to single-aisle aircraft as well. But that only applies to new airplanes. So we will be several years more likely a decade before we start to see that on a regular and predictive way. Again, with all people with disabilities, if they can't predict what their travel plan is from start to finish, even if it would be an accessible flight for them, they can't take that risk. So you end up this is a community that ends up having to travel out of state for healthcare as well. We have people who would prefer to drive days at a time than risking going to an airport. That's just frankly unacceptable.
There's also a proposed rule around ensuring safe accommodations for air travelers who use wheelchairs. We were very excited to see this rule as open for comment right now. We encourage public comment. I would encourage you read it and comment yourself. Because this feedback is really how we're going to start to address these issues and start to really see this go. I was talking earlier about how we even see language in this rule that reflects previous comments made about previous rules so as long as we have that dialogue going and continue to build that on both an individual and organizational level, that's how we start to move forward and that's how we start to get to the flying cars and everything else, which it is quite fun.
And the other big thing is rulemaking is great. The other way we can start to see changes is through legislation. Next slide. Legislation can be a vehicle for other air travel protections for people with disabilities. There are hundreds if not more bills introduced every year that are designed to improve the travel experience for people with disabilities. Oftentimes they are sometimes they're passed, sometimes they're not, oftentimes they're passed to off to DoT. Some of you may have heard about the FAA reauthorization. We're on our third short-term extension since September. And we are trying to get a long-term extension done. The current short term extension expires in May. Lawmakers like to take their time on stuff like that. Sometimes they need a little extra help getting through stuff like that.
But as we continue to go through, we still stand committed to a 5-year reauthorization. One has passed through the House. The Senate one has passed through committee but not been heard by the full Senate yet. And all the lawmakers that we are talking to feel confident they will be able to push that through and get that done by the May deadline. So then it is how do you get through the differences in the different versions in the House and Senate. We will feel like a broken record but that's where it comes back to individual and organizational advocacy. Those offices want to hear from you.
They're starting to hear from us. About what provisions are important, making sure the disability community is included, and especially when we found out the biggest disagreements that we see in that reauthorization is not even about any issues that have anything to do with the disability community. The biggest sticking point at this point is how many flights can come in and out of DCA per day. Members of Congress care about that because many of them fly in and out of DCA. But it's stuff like that. As we're sitting in a position with a real opportunity to help people with disabilities travel every single day, and the sticking point is that. It's just a little bit frustrating but that's where your organizational and individual advocacy could come in.
When you lay it out like that, you see the look in people's eyes when people start to go, oh, yeah, this is an issue we care about, but we're actually denying people. So as long as we continue to do that, that's where we are. Just my plug for advocacy because I think it works.
Also some other pieces of legislation that I think are important that I wanted to mention. One is the EVAC Act as well, the Emergency Evacuation Aircraft Cabin Act. That has been included in the reauthorization, which we're excited about. The current standard is that in case of an emergency, a plane can be completely emptied of all people in 90 seconds. That's the time line. Think about any time you've been on a plane. Think about all the people with carry-ons below them and the tight space, the size, the amount of people. Getting all those people out in 90 seconds is just not feasible.
I always love connecting stories so I can share that my father was in a plane crash that went down to the Hudson River. Even in the river with people running and trying to scream out, it took them 3 and a half minutes to get out of that plane. And that's before you even take into account any special accommodations. So as long as that continues to be the case, we're not putting ourselves in a position to succeed. This goes back to training but also knowledge and common sense a little bit of just like is this something that we can really do, is it feasible, and how can we look at it to make sure we have the best possible solution for everyone on the plane regardless of the situation.
Another is the mobile act, the Mobility Aids on Board Improve Lives and Empower All, MOBILE Act. Elements of that are also in the reauthorization. So whenever there are these large packages, it really can be a way to just tack on and ensure that our priorities are included. And the biggest issue that we've said both as a task force but as a foundation, we asked around about making sure this is a real opportunity to help the entire disability community and this is a way, if we're having these discussions anyway, that's where you can start to look a little further and think about what are the changes we would like to see and how realistically can we get those done.
And so with that, I'm going to close with one final little thing, which again, broken record: Organizational advocacy, individual advocacy, your voice matters, the work of your organization matters. Be heard, be loud. And as long as we can continue to have those conversations, ensure all of that information is included, that we can continue to start to see this better world that I think we all want to see with travel. With that, I think we will open it up for questions.
DANICA GONZALVES: Okay. We're going to open it up for a Q&A. If you have a question, feel free to get my attention anyway that's easiest for you. If not, I am going to piggyback off of what Tyler said a little bit. So we talked a lot about advocacy, and there are different modes for advocacy. There are showing up to public hearings. And there are submitting regulatory comments. There are also submitting complaints, which I highly, highly recommend people do.
At PVA, we are big proponents of accessible air travel. I just got an email this morning from an airline acknowledging that on one trip they violated three parts of the Air Carrier Access Act. So please file complaints. Encourage, if you're a membership organization or you have friends that travel that have disabilities, file complaints, because these numbers are reported, and the more that they can see these numbers going up, the more that agency will say, oh, we probably should do something about it.
There are also educational bases. Tyler is talking about the Air Passengers with Disabilities Bill of Rights. Very long title. Helping people know their rights when they travel by air, this is on the DoT website. We pushed hard for the airlines to put it in the back of seats where they do the emergency evacuation cards. They said no. But this is online. There are options to educate people. There are videos that you can share on social media that are just a quick little YouTube video that goes through the Bill of Rights. The more people that know their rights, the more they can see, wait, I'm not supposed to be treated this way. I have the right to be treated a different way.
Like I said, a lot of our members use mobility devices, and I get calls all the time, they broke my wheelchair, they lost my wheelchair, they totaled my wheelchair. And this is just a recurring problem all the time. So we're very excited about this wheelchair notice of proposed rulemaking. The comment period is open until May 13th. Please submit comments. Go to regulations.gov or Secretary Buttigieg did a press release on it so you can just Google it and you'll get the link to submit your public comments, but please do as much advocacy as you can. Only with advocacy can we make transportation look more accessible in the future.
And that is my soap box. Oh, now we have two questions! Yes. On the first row.
SPEAKER: Thank you for the presentation. Very informative. I just wondered if anybody could speak to if there's what might be going on in terms of advocacy related to some of these promotional and loyalty programs that airlines are having. For example, I received an upgrade but they wouldn't allow my companion to sit next to me. Are you seeing those type of programs causing further accessibility challenges and maybe what direction are you guys seeing efforts being made to address that?
DANICA GONZALVES: This is Danica. I have not heard that complaint specifically.
SWATHA NANDHAKUMAR: The ADAPT Act?
DANICA GONZALVES: You're talking about when the point-based programs, so that you qualify for upgraded seats?
SPEAKER: If you fly enough, American, Delta, if you fly enough, they put you on lists for complimentary upgrades. But they've got these rules like if you're sitting with a companion because you're a person with a disability. If that companion isn't on the same reservation with you, they can't fly with you. And then they'll say, if you need to sit with that person, we'll just remove that upgrade.
TYLER BECK: This is something we hear a lot about at the Epilepsy Foundation as well for exactly what you're talking about. Those stories of, now it's a situation where that upgrade is being taken away from you.
What we have had in initial conversations it's always the response of, oh, yes, that's just a one off situation, it won't happen again. Then at a certain point you're doing the call over and over again and there's only so many one off situations that you can have before you have to acknowledge it's a pattern.
We have had conversations specifically with American Airlines who wants to ensure that doesn't happen anymore by ensuring if you are, across the board, if you're given an upgrade, the key piece is what you said, on the same reservation. So yeah, their response is, yeah, it's easy, just make sure you're on the same reservation. But those conversations are ongoing.
DANICA GONZALVES: We had another question.
SPEAKER: Yeah. I think that's me. I have a couple questions. First, the Amtrak lady, I'm sorry, I forgot your name.
DANICA GONZALVES: This is Danica. Sorry. I probably should have repeated that.
SPEAKER: Danica. So after the conference, I would like to talk to Danica in private. I take Amtrak all the time and I'll follow up and tell you why later. But I take Amtrak all the time because I used to be morbidly obese. So my first question is, for those people who are still morbidly obese, I got basically pulled out of line when I was morbidly obese in Chicago and I was humiliated. Obviously I was blind too. But I was basically humiliated in front of like 250 people because I was morbidly obese and told that I would have to buy a second ticket. At the time I didn't have the money, my credit card was maxed out. And I was really in a predicament.
So I guess my first question is, yes, I'm blind, I have a disability, but yeah, I am morbidly obese. The plane wasn't full. And Southwest was still making me buy an extra ticket because I was morbidly obese. So my question is, and then a lady sat right next to me when I got on the plane. So I guess is obesity covered under the ADA at all?
DANICA GONZALVES: This is Danica. Obesity in and of itself is not. If the individual has a disability, what would qualify as a disability under the ADA due to obesity, then that would qualify. But obesity in and of itself is not covered under the ADA. That exact situation has had lawsuits filed in court under the Air Carrier Access Act specifically. And every single court has thrown it out by saying that obesity is not a disability in and of itself so therefore the airlines can make these policies.
SPEAKER: Okay. So my second question is, I got a lot of stories. But so I went to Myrtle Beach last May for my anniversary, and literally, there was no protocol on how to handle disabled people. And the conductor, I went to hand him my suitcase because I'm blind, to help me get off the train. I thought he was going to help me. But he didn't. And he literally almost pulled me down the steps. And I said, "Sir, I'm blind, can you help me with my suitcase." And he basically yanked me down the steps and almost pulled my shoulder out.
I said, "Sir, I'm blind. That's not how I want to be treated." And then he said something to me like to the effect, "You don't look blind." He really kind of set me off. I was like, "I have a white cane in my hand. How does a blind person look? "He basically got mad at me and started yelling at me. So anyway, long story short, I filed a complaint with Amtrak. They were supposed to give me $100 credit. And I couldn't get the credit because they spelled my name wrong. And they never got back to me about the complaint. And I'm just really frustrated, you know, about how I was treated.
DANICA GONZALVES: This is Danica. That's the exact situation I would say file a complaint. I would follow up. The Amtrak accessibility office actually has really good staff right now. They're the ones that work directly with the customers, or passengers with disabilities. I recommend reaching out to them again and seeing if they can help you with that situation. If you have any more direct questions, feel free to grab one of the panelists after the session. We'll go ahead and tie this up.
We thank everyone for coming here today. Just summary: Please advocate for accessible transportation in any way you can! It's not just for the four of us. It is for everyone that travels that has a disability.
And thank you so much for coming.
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