Announcer:
Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast presented by the National Federation of the Blind, the transformative membership and advocacy organization of Blind Americans. Live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Hello and welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast. I am Melissa Riccobono, one of the hosts of the podcast, and I have my co-host with me today, and his name is...
Anil Lewis:
I'm Anil Lewis. I'm another co-host of the Nations Blind. Melissa, we're at it again.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yes, we are at it again. It is great. I have to say it's been wonderful to be with all of you so often. I love that we're getting back into a really good recording rhythm and we're able to bring podcasts to you on a fairly regular basis, and it feels nice to have the chance to talk with you more regularly, Anil, this is nice.
Anil Lewis:
And I enjoy it too, but some topics are a little more difficult than others. Today's topic, we're talking to some young adults who are engaging in their college lives and reflecting back on my days in college, it's making me very nostalgic and wishing I didn't have to worry about mortgages and work. So yeah, I'll try my best to get through it. So maybe they'll motivate me and encourage me to look at life differently.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh my gosh, I remember college and the same things. Although Anil, we never, or at least I didn't enjoy what I had when I was there because of course, when I was in college, I thought that all the stresses of classes and exams and midterms and papers and all of those things, that was all very hard. Do you have, very quickly, before I bring our guests in, do you have one piece of advice you would wish you could give your former college self?
Anil Lewis:
Well, you're making me feel better because your pointing out the aspects that I kind of blushed over, I only remember the fun time that I had in college. So I guess the advice I would give is find that balance, because when I first went into college, I really focused on all the fun and not the academics. So then when I really buckled down, I had to really focus on the academics. So find that balance, have fun, but also really be committed to your academics.
Melissa Riccobono:
It's so funny because we're almost exactly the opposite. I would tell my former college self to have a little more fun, not to be quite as concerned that if you got a B minus on a test instead of an
A plus, things were probably going to be okay. The world was not going to quit turning, that yes, academics are important, and I definitely benefited a lot from paying attention to academics. I'm not trying to say I didn't. At the same time I look back and oh my gosh, that was a time in my life when I could have had more fun, when I could have made more stupid mistakes, when I could have just let things go a little bit and let myself find more of my people in college. I think that was the other part for me. I was very reserved and actually very shy and really had trouble connecting with people in my dorm and people in my classes in a really meaningful way. And so if I could give myself advice, I would really want myself to have a little bit more fun and really put myself out there just a little more so I could find my people. But I digress. We're not going to talk about us.
Anil Lewis:
Finding your people. That's a good thing.
Melissa Riccobono:
Finding your people.
Anil Lewis:
I had too much fun. Let's see where these guys fall on the spectrum. Let's see. Let's bring our guests in and see where they fall on the fun academic spectrum. Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
Absolutely. So we have three young people as Anil pointed out, we're going to start with just only because he's the first on my list, not for any other reason. Joshua Olukanni. How are you, Josh?
Joshua Olukanni:
I'm doing well. I'm doing well. It's a good day. I had two classes and now I'm here.
Melissa Riccobono:
Excellent. Great.
Anil Lewis:
Did you have any fun today, Josh? Or you just had your classes?
Joshua Olukanni:
I did have fun in my class, actually. I'm taking a bowling class.
Anil Lewis:
Oh, look at what he did.
Joshua Olukanni:
Yeah.
Anil Lewis:
What class?
Joshua Olukanni:
A bowling class. So that was pretty fun.
Anil Lewis:
Oh my God. Oh my God. Wow.
Melissa Riccobono:
Did you get any strikes today?
Joshua Olukanni:
Not today, but I did the other day, so hopefully I can keep that up.
Anil Lewis:
Excellent. So what is your major with the bowling class?
Joshua Olukanni:
So basically I needed one more credit to get financial aid, and so I decided to take a bowling class.
Anil Lewis:
Oh, I see.
Melissa Riccobono:
Nice. Okay.
Anil Lewis:
Nice.
Melissa Riccobono:
That's amazing. That's great.
Anil Lewis:
But what is your major, Josh?
Joshua Olukanni:
My major is Human Resource Development.
Anil Lewis:
Okay. Well, bowling will come in handy. Human Resources, that's one of the things I joined the bowling club of one of my employers, so yeah. Okay, I get it.
Melissa Riccobono:
And where do you go to school?
Joshua Olukanni:
I attend school at the University of Minnesota.
Melissa Riccobono:
My sister's an alum from University of Minnesota. Excellent. And what do you want to do with your degree in Human Resources? Because that's a pretty big, possibly a pretty big, oh my goodness, sorry, words. That's a big field. Exactly. A big field and you could do several things with it. So do you have an idea of what you'd really like to do with it once you graduate?
Joshua Olukanni:
Yeah, so I have two paths in mind. The first path being I would work for a talent acquisition agency, essentially just helping people connect with employers that are looking for people with specific skill sets. And it's kind of a combination between HR and sales in some ways. And then the other route would be not doing anything HR related at all and going to grad school for finance. So we'll see what happens. Nice.
Melissa Riccobono:
Very, very nice. Well, thank you so much for being with us, Josh. Next on my list is Trisha Kulkarni. How are you, Trisha?
Trisha Kulkarni:
I'm great. It's great to be here.
Melissa Riccobono:
And did you have fun today, Trisha?
Trisha Kulkarni:
I did. My day started very early. I went on a run at 6:45 in the morning, so...
Anil Lewis:
Well, we were asking if you had any fun.
Trisha Kulkarni:
(Laughs) But it was fun because afterwards I got to celebrate with an iced coffee and a good breakfast, so.
Anil Lewis:
Nice. Are you in class as well?
Trisha Kulkarni:
So actually today I didn't have any classes this morning. I'm living the grad student life right now, so a lot less classes than Josh probably, but just the same amount of work.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, absolutely. So what's your major?
Trisha Kulkarni:
So I'm wrapping up my master's degree in computer science at Stanford University, and I also did my bachelor's in computer science, so did different concentrations along the way. My undergrad was focused in computer systems, and now I've switched over to human computer interaction, which focuses on user experiences and the design process.
Anil Lewis:
Nice. My undergraduate is in computer information systems. So that's nice. Fun stuff.
Melissa Riccobono:
So what would you like to do? What would be your dream job after you graduate?
Trisha Kulkarni:
That's the million dollar question right now, currently navigating the job recruiting process, but I think in my last year of my grad program, I did a fellowship on business and entrepreneurship, and I'm now really excited about merging those two fields to hopefully make an impact in the world. So most likely I'll be working at a startup trying to figure out how we can use AI to make a positive difference in the world.
Melissa Riccobono:
Nice. We definitely need that. Absolutely. We need good scientists as opposed to mad scientists to try to make sure we're doing well with AI.
Trisha Kulkarni:
Yes, absolutely.
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, it's great to have you here, and I notice now that these are students in alphabetical order backward, so there you go. But our next and last guest is Jenn Han. How are you, Jenn?
Jenn Han:
Hey guys, it's good to be here. I was going to make a joke that you saved the best of your last, but maybe not.
Anil Lewis:
No, that's not a joke. No, that's not a joke.
Melissa Riccobono:
We did, no absolutely we did (laughs). So did you have fun today, Jenn, or was it all work?
Jenn Han:
I did. I was just going to preface if you've ever met me in-person and you're thinking she does not sound like that. I've been sick all week, so that's exactly why. But yeah, today, yeah.
Anil Lewis:
You're one of the best sounding sick people I've ever heard.
Jenn Han:
Yeah, I'll take the compliments where I can get them.
Anil Lewis:
That's a pretty good sick voice.
Jenn Han:
Yeah, but today was pretty chill. It was a really slow morning, and so today I'm just taking time to rest and take it easy.
Anil Lewis:
So you're not in any classes this semester?
Jenn Han:
No. So I'm actually in this really weird transition space where I am taking temporary positions, and so I know that your next question's probably going to be what's your major? And so it kind of leads into that. And so my first degree was in molecular biology at the University of California, Los Angeles, and then I did take a year to work in the medical industry, and then I decided I wanted to go back to school to pursue my degree in nursing. So then I went into what's called an accelerated bachelor's of nursing, and so it's designed for people who already have a bachelor's degree, and so it cuts out a lot of the prerequisites, and so it's a fifteen month program to get your BSN. Then I went to California State University, Northridge, which is kind of right by me here in Los Angeles, and I completed that in around May of last year. And then I studied for the, what's called the NCLEX, which is the nursing licensing exam for the national board. And then I passed that in September, and then I took some time off to just travel, and be with family.
Anil Lewis:
Thank you because I was exhausted with you just describing that academic trajectory. Good for you.
Jenn Han:
Yeah, people are like, "You need a break." I'm like, "Yes, yes, I do." And so I took that. Absolutely. I took the rest of the year off and I spent time with family. I caught up with friends that I hadn't seen in a while, really just take time for you. And so now I'm kind of in this weird phase where I'm like, oh, I think I kind of want to go back to school again, but I'm also kind of...
Anil Lewis:
(Laughs) So is that your plan to be a professional student or do you have a vocational trajectory?
Jenn Han:
Yeah, right. I think I'm pretty good at it at this point, but yeah, and so now I'm kind in this space where I am taking temporary positions in the nursing field, but also looking to go back to school by next spring.
Anil Lewis:
Nice. And if you went back to school, what would be the degree pursuit?
Jenn Han:
Yeah, so it's going to be, I've got two bachelors and now I want two masters. What can you do? (Laughs) So it's going to be a dual master's program in nursing leadership and business administration.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow, oh, that's awesome.
Jenn Han:
Yeah, it should be a lot of fun.
Melissa Riccobono:
We have some really smart people on this call. Anil I am very impressed as always. I'm always excited to talk to young people about their goals and their passions. So Trisha and Josh, you guys are very, you're very modest. Neither of you mentioned the fact that you happen to be scholarship winners for the National Federation of the Blind, so congratulations to both of you on that. Are you current, I'm guessing you guys are both current winners in this class or have you been in the past?
Joshua Olukanni:
Yeah, I was a winner this past year in 2024.
Melissa Riccobono:
Okay, got it.
Trisha Kulkarni:
Yeah, and on my end, I found the Federation by being in the 2018 scholarship class and then was really fortunate to get the tenBroek Award in 2023.
Anil Lewis:
Oh, nice. And for our listeners the tenBroek is a person who does win a scholarship for the second time, and that's a very high bar to reach to be able to get an NFB scholarship twice.
Melissa Riccobono:
I mean, it is a high bar to reach to get it once. It's a really hard high bar to reach to get it twice. I was a winner. I was a winner in 2000. Yeah, I always have to go in my head and think back, but yes, the class of 2000 was my scholarship class and Anil, I think you won too, right?
Anil Lewis:
The best class ever. The best class ever. 2002. There will be no scholarship class in the Federation that surpasses.
Melissa Riccobono:
Ever.
Anil Lewis:
And I can understand why Josh and Trisha, they were remiss in mentioning it because they knew that I was on the call here, but it's okay. You should still be proud even if you weren't a 2002 winner. Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
(Laughs) Gosh, oh my goodness. So that's funny.
Anil Lewis:
So let's talk about being blind and going to college.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, I mean, that's the question that I was going to ask actually. Very good segue Anil. What has all of your experiences been as blind students? And maybe Jenn, since we had you go last first, maybe we'll have you go first now (laughs).
Jenn Han:
Yeah, sure. I think college in general is just, it's such an opportunity. I mean, really it's an opportunity to be able to discover a lot of things about yourself that you weren't able to previously. It's an opportunity to just have a lot of fun, but it's also an opportunity to really find what you are passionate about. And there's a lot of self-discovery in that. I have a lot of, you said professional students, so I'll say I have a lot of experience in college, but really it's being blind in that space. It definitely comes with its own challenges for sure. Not just academically, but socially too. There's a lot of things that you'll have to navigate, but it also kind of helps you really get in touch with yourself and really see and remind yourself that, hey, you are far more capable than what you initially perceived. And just to the point of, I think you guys mentioned this earlier, finding your people, that really matters for sure. Especially when sometimes it's really easy to feel isolated. It's really easy to have imposter syndrome. But yeah, I think college, they say this, there's a cliche of like, oh, you're never going to experience years like that. I get it. It is so true. It's absolutely true for sure.
Anil Lewis:
I'm just curious, do you feel comfortable sharing one of those social situations that you say you found difficult to navigate?
Jenn Han:
Yeah, I mean, there's a number of them, but it's really, for example, when you and your friends go out to eat and you can't read the menu, and so you have to be open about that and explain that like, hey, and it's simple. It's such a simple example, but when you're in college and you have those social pressures to fit in and be cool and stuff and want to play it off, and then you have to be like, oh, hey, I can't read this, it makes you realize this might be kind of an off saying, but it's not as big of a deal as it is in your head as you make it out to be in reality. And so when you...
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, I get that.
Jenn Han:
Yeah and so when you encounter those situations and you tell people like, "Hey, I need help reading this menu," or "Hey, we're going to walk into a movie theater and I need you to be my guide. I can't see," or for whatever reason, or, "Hey, we're going to attend an event, I need you to stick around close so we don't lose each other." People are willing to support you and show up for you if you just communicate that. And so I think so often we kind of get caught up in the anxiety of, "Oh, what are they going to think of me?" Or, "Oh, what's going to happen here and there?" But in truth, people, like I said, we often magnify those things in our head. And then in truth, people are willing to definitely show up.
Anil Lewis:
I'm glad you shared that, especially when you were mentioning the consequence, like the imposter syndrome, going and rather than getting someone to tell you what's on the menu, everywhere you go, you're the one that gets that cheeseburger. You're probably pretty sure they're going to have a cheeseburger on the menu rather than stating, "What's on the menu?" Yeah, that's real. Thanks for sharing that.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it goes beyond college. I've had experiences like that fairly recently. So the better you get navigating all that in college, the better you're just going to get throughout your life. And it's so silly. I mean, the person that I struggled most with is one of my best friends, and I don't know what it was, but she's a very quiet individual, and I was always terrified when we were together that I was going to just lose her because she's just quiet. And finally I got up the courage to just say, "Can I take your arm so that we don't lose each other?" And she was like, "Oh, of course." And it was no big deal, but it took me, I don't know, at least two or three times, and this is a person I really care about and very much trust, and so I totally get it. I totally get it. Josh, how about you? What's it been like being a blind student?
Joshua Olukanni:
Yeah, so I would say my first couple years was very similar to Anil's college experience. It was a little crazy (laughs). A little crazy and I got to have a lot of fun experiences that I most definitely can look back at and be happy about. And then the latter two, junior and senior year has been a lot more quieter, and it's been more of a grind to figure out what I want to do, what direction I want to go in, and just kind of narrowing down who I want to continue to be around. I feel like freshman and sophomore year, there's just an abundance of energy to be social and you make these large friend groups and are going to parties and going to hang out with people constantly. But I think once you get an apartment and are in those latter years of college, at least in my experience, it's most definitely been a shift. As for being a blind student, I think that I really echo what Jenn had mentioned earlier of those social situations generally being a little bit more difficult to navigate than our sighted counterparts because there is that barrier there. I know just as an example, in my case, a lot of those times when I would go to those parties or those events, there would almost be a misunderstanding or a lack of belief that I was blind. So people would come up to me and they would be drunk, they would be out of their minds, and they're like, "Oh, you're not blind." And they'll go on tirades. They'll be like, "You're not blind. I swear to you, you're not blind." And I have to sit there and be like, "Why would I pretend about that?" And so this happened to me throughout college, but probably one of the things that sticks with me the most, because I feel like in my head it shows the audacity of people to not only not believe that you're blind, but then making it a bigger thing in public. So, yeah.
Anil Lewis:
Interesting. Interesting. How about you, Trisha?
Trisha Kulkarni:
Yeah, I definitely echo a lot of what's already been said. I am thinking back to the beginning of the call where we were talking about academics and fun. And I think there's one other category that should be added, which is personal growth. And I, when I think about the past six years through my academic journey, I think of all three of those categories, I think coming to a really competitive environment and studying a STEM subject, I feel like I faced a lot of access barriers almost immediately. When I entered campus, I was at my first lecture of the quarter of my freshman year, and I was super excited to be in class. It was this huge lecture hall of 500 people, and the professor was super animated, and the thing that he projected on the board was a robot that moved around the screen and the whole first class was about graphical interfaces.
And it was only after the class that I was able to talk to the professor and figure out how am I going to get that information. And a lot of those early years were figuring out how to advocate for myself. And also just there wasn't a lot of infrastructure for how a blind student could go through these classes. And a lot of the curriculum wasn't designed with us in mind. And so I think that felt like a big responsibility when a lot of people were out at parties or getting to just hang out with people. I was at office hours late or I was on the phone with the TA troubleshooting. And I think that's something that people don't talk about enough is just that the educational system for all of the growth that it's had and for all the great access that we've been able to have, there's still a lot of work to be done to make the experience actually equitable and to encourage people to stay the course.
I think there's plenty of times that I could have given up on that academic journey. I'm really glad I didn't. I think that is one thing. And then with the fun component, I definitely can relate to that too. College has been an amazing time to just get to know people from all walks of life, studying all sorts of things. I think I expected to make my closest friends in my classes or in spaces where I am super similar to the other person, but I think college is a really great time to meet people who your path probably wouldn't have crossed with otherwise. And so I look at all the people in my life now and all the people who have enriched the journey, and I've met them from the most niche corners of campus. So I really am grateful that I've had the space to connect with people.
I think that's a big part of what college is about. And then finally with personal growth, I think about my journey with blindness as a big part of that experience. I lost my vision unexpectedly right before high school, and a lot of high school was figuring out the hows. How I was going to take classes and do braille and all of that. But when I got to college, it was how was I going to define myself as a college student and how was I going to make friends? The friends that I had in high school were people who knew me before I went blind. But now I was having to introduce myself and navigate a lot of those social situations for the first time. And I think at the beginning, I think of some of the stuff I did back then and I cringe because I think it was classic teenager trying to figure out who they want to be and how they want to be known. But there were times early on in my college career where there would be a fun fact about myself, and I would be like, "This is my guide dog, Libby, and that's my fun fact." And then over time, I kind of realized that doesn't actually tell people anything about me or who I'm about. And so I think now I really try to live my life on different terms and kind of use the NFB philosophy that blindness isn't the only characteristic that defines me, and I want to be known for the other characteristics I bring to the table as well.
Anil Lewis:
That's nice. I must admit, when I saw this topic as a podcast topic, I thought a lot of what we were would be talking about is all the lack of academic accommodation. So the whole social aspect of this has been really enlightening for me and hearing you share it. So taking all that into consideration around how education has evolved, but if there's still some barriers, I was just curious to know whether you guys have any stories of access barriers you've faced and the advocacy that you had to introduce in order to get access to the educational environment. But before you tell us your stories, let's take a listen to one of our sponsors.
Ad:
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Melissa Riccobono:
Okay, we're back. And so before our ad, Anil mentioned or asked the question of what ways have you had to advocate during your college experience? And so you guys have had a minute to think about this, anybody would like to start? We're open.
Jenn Han:
I was going to say, I'm really glad you guys kept this at an hour because I could talk hours and hours about this, (laughs) literally hours. So to Trisha's point, absolutely, we enter into spaces, especially in the STEM industry, we enter into spaces that were not built for us. And so you're going in there and you're knocking down walls just to make things accessible. And some people don't like that. And some people are so used to things being done a certain way that if you do it any other way, it's seen as wrong and they will find any and every justification to try and get you to quit. And so to that point, when I entered into the nursing industry to pursue my bachelor's of nursing, I knew that there were going to be hurdles. I just didn't quite know what extent. And kind of back to my first bachelor's, I did encounter hurdles, but the university was extremely accommodating. For example, when I had to do lab work, they assigned me an assistant who could just help with visually describing the experiments that we were doing. And that helped a great deal. And that's a great accommodation if you have any chemistry labs or any biology labs that you have to have a personal assistant who describes things to you, who tells you what's going on visually, and then you're able to take that information and draw your own conclusions.
And so that's a really, really good one. Beyond that, they were really, really accommodating back at UCLA. And then when I entered into this new industry of nursing, things got so different just because it becomes a lot more real when you are dealing with actual patient lives and when you're dealing with actual medications and just medicine, I mean, medicine in general is, it's a hard field for sure. It's a field that you really have to go in every single day and think about why you chose this industry in the first place. Because I mean, beyond just being blind, the field itself is hard and it's not meant for everyone. And so you're going to encounter days where you face some really hard truths you face. And not to get too serious, but that's why they say, remember your why because people, you're faced with mortality. You're faced with hard giving patients hard news.
You're faced with feeling like you want to fix something, but you can't. And if someone has a really poor prognosis, all you can really do is make the time that they have left meaningful. And you're also faced with just the family dynamics when a patient has a situation, breaking hard news, all these different things. And so it's like that on top of navigating it as a blind individual. And so when I went into this industry and trying to pursue this field, I made it super, super clear to my professors, "Hey, I'm legally blind." My motto is, it's not about making exceptions, it's about being creative. And so honestly, when I told them that they did not know what to do with me, they were like, we have never encountered a blind student before. We can try and check with our other partnering nursing schools, but in truth, there are very far and few of us in the medical industry.
And so that's something that I've been really pushing for and advocating for. And so some of the barriers that I encountered were very technical based. So they involved a lot of the nursing skills, for example, putting in an IV for example. A lot of it relied on visual. And so I had to really adapt that and be like, okay, I can't really, I have tools, but I need to be creative with those tools, but I also need to use my other senses, like my ability to feel. And so you rely more heavily on that. So the first thing that I would say is use what you already have. You don't need to go buy super expensive stuff and try fifteen different gadgets in order to accomplish the same thing that your senses can. And the second thing is really use your community. And that's how I was able to find the tools that I use now.
But I absolutely faced a lot of opposition. I mean, there were times where professors intentionally and unfortunately failed me and made me repeat my clinicals just because a nurse on the unit had said that I was unsafe. And then when I asked them the reasoning behind that, they had no reasoning. They just said, "Oh, she just said you were unsafe," but I'd never interacted with this nurse before. And so there's a lot of preconceived biases, a lot of things that you have to navigate. And that's just one story. Like I said, I could talk about this for hours, but truly it's...
Anil Lewis:
It's probably extremely challenging for you because it's a very noble profession, but there are not a lot of blind people in that field. So in some instances when we can show so many blind people doing it, it really eases the content. So a lot of people who do have those concerns, so you are kind of on the front line of creating opportunities. The other piece, I think that's important, you highlighted this as a success in your work, and Trisha highlighted it, but having those relationships with your professors, I think a lot of people don't recognize that that's advocacy. I think a lot of people will think that it's about fighting and "It's my right," but developing those relationships with the individuals who are providing the instruction and working with them collaboratively to meet your educational needs, to get access to the information, that's a first line step of advocacy. And it's also really good around professional development. So thank you for sharing that.
Melissa Riccobono:
And I would just say too, I mean kudos for you for holding on tightly to your why and deciding that even with all the other things that you were dealing with, that it was still worth it. And ultimately you got your degree so you proved to yourself and to others that you really do and can belong in this space. You can be safe, you can do all the things that were required of you. I do want to be a little bit careful though, because there might be people listening to this that might start feeling bad about, "Oh, I went to college and it didn't work out for me, or I ultimately decided that it wasn't worth me dealing with this, that or the other." I mean, I think it's really important just to know that all of these things are one person's personal journey, and that if you decided ultimately that if you had decided ultimately, "Hey, my why is not strong enough. I want to find some other way I can help in a similar way, but maybe it's not nursing," that that could have been okay, as long as that is really because you decide that and not because somebody else is pushing you. It's very hard, it's very, very hard. But I do want to just caution people that sometimes people are able to fight through these battles, and other times the better thing or the thing that's going to give you the most peace is to walk away. And figuring out when to do that is another super important part, I think of college, of adulthood, and of growing up.
Anil Lewis:
And that's why I think it's also good to have these conversations for that, because many times it is very frustrating, but when you hear some other individuals facing those same challenges, maybe they have come up with a strategy that would be helpful if you do choose to pursue it. So yeah, I love having these conversations because I tell people as an organization, we're not experts in everything. We're experts in blindness. But even with that, we don't know it all. And I love the way that through these shared experiences, we can all continue to grow.
Melissa Riccobono:
Absolutely. So Josh or Trisha, do you have ways that you've advocated for yourselves or for other students?
Joshua Olukanni:
Yeah, so in my case, I have a lot of admiration for Trisha and Jenn for being in STEM fields. I am not. So a lot of my issues have come from my STEM classes, such as calculus. Calculas for me was a very, very big struggle just due to the visual nature of understanding it. And due to that situation being how it is, taking calc, the first time I took calc and had to ultimately withdraw, kind of speaking to the piece that had just gotten mentioned of sometimes you have to understand when things aren't going the way you want them to, and trying again later is ultimately the way to go about doing it. So for me, that's what I ended up having to do, because with calc, there was a lot of, okay, here are the videos lecturing about this. And when it gets to a certain point in calculus, it's not simple derivatives and anti-derivatives anymore.
It's more complex and the amount of things that you have to keep in your head, for me personally, got to a point where it just was not mathing and adding up. So one thing that I did was I started to preemptively before I took calc again this previous semester, is having that conversation with my access consultant here on campus and figuring out ways how to make the class more accessible. And even then when those conversations were had, there weren't really more explanations or more assistance to make it more accessible. And one thing that I realized could be very helpful for me is continuing to lock in and go to one-on-one tutoring sessions and just not show up to lecture or discussion, because ultimately I wasn't really getting anything out of those classes. So that's something that I have had to pick up over my four years in college so far. And whenever I am taking more of a technical class, sometimes I do have to make that call on ask myself, am I really getting anything out of going to this class? Or can I learn the same thing with a tutor one-on-one?
Anil Lewis:
Nice.
Melissa Riccobono:
That's very powerful and good for you for recognizing, "Hey, I could go to this class. I'm not getting out anything out of it. I'd rather spend my time going to this tutor instead." And that's great. Trisha, how about you?
Trisha Kulkarni:
Yeah, I want to echo the, I could talk about this for hours. And I think the sad part is that I think it's a given that any blind student who's navigated the higher education system probably has a wealth of stories of fighting access issues. So I kind of just wanted to start with that, but I think there's so much time to share those stories. But I wanted to highlight of maybe a few other ways that I've advocated that have meant a lot to me in my journey. One is I think there's this idea of an undue burden on a university to provide accommodations, and we're always talking about what's reasonable for the university to have to do. But through my experiences, I started asking the question of what's reasonable to ask a blind student to do while they're taking classes? And that was just such a big responsibility that was put on me early on.
My instructors were really nice and wanted to work with me, and I was fortunate to be in a field that is very innovative and wants to come up with new technology to help you, but they're like, "Yeah, just let us know what you need." And sometimes when you're in an introductory class to a field you've never studied before, you don't really know what you need. And so I think as I came to find some of those answers, I wanted to position myself in places where I could maybe share those answers without putting it on the next blind student who came through the system. And so a lot of my time has been spent as a teacher's assistant in the computer science department talking about inclusive pedagogy of teaching, but also just breaking down barriers of who people think can be in the field. Because when I walk into a classroom building, people are trying to help me find my classroom and help me find a seat. And it's a really powerful moment to be like, no, I don't need the seat. I'm walking up to the podium. I'm teaching this class.
Anil Lewis:
(Laughs) Nice.
Trisha Kulkarni
And so I think that being able to do that just changes the narrative a lot. And maybe take some of that burden off of the freshmen who's taking intro comp sci for the first time. Kind of in a similar vein, I've also had the opportunity to engage in accessibility research at the university level. So my PhD mentor is studying electrical engineering, and we've been able to publish a few papers about how we need to change the landscape of blind students who are taking electrical engineering and computer science classes to be more hands on. There's a lot of perception that blind students should just be learning the concepts and have a lab assistant to do everything for them in the lab. But with enough advocacy and information sharing, it is possible for a blind person to be soldering or to be building circuits, and
We want more people to be doing that. So there's that. And then on the other end, I think that these pain points are always what keeps people engaged in the blindness community too. And so for me, a lot of my college was spent as the president of our national student division. And through that role, I think that one of the most powerful experiences was just having that collective action and being able to share stories and advice. I remember actually getting emotional my sophomore year because I was having a really tough day at school. And when I got out of my classes, my job was to compile testimonies that we were going to put forward to Congress for advocating for accessibility in higher education, and to be able to compile multiple testimonies from every state in our country with people sharing similar pain points. It just really fueled my fight for legislative action and systemic change as well. And then on the flip side, also, now being able to share some of those answers and that advice to blind students on a more personal level has also been really awesome. Getting a call from someone in training, talking about wanting to be a computer science major, I can't give them all of the secrets or keys to success because I think there's still a lot that has to be figured out, but I think we're further along than we've ever been to making that an easy process.
Anil Lewis:
But I do think that our National Association of Blind Students, the NABS organization, is one of the keys to success. I know that you and Josh have been very active in NABS, and I want to give you guys a chance to shout out on that, but I want to make one really good point on what you just talked about in the electrical engineering field, because I think that as we strive to make sure that those environments are more accessible for blind students to be proactively engaged in that, we develop tools. And I love that in some of the programs that we've done around stem, we develop tools that not only make it possible for blind people to actually engage and participate, but the tools we develop become multimodal tools that not only just help blind people, but they help others. I mean, when you're talking about electrical engineering or even more in a fundamental way, being an electrician, the different tactile wiring and that kind of thing allows even sighted individuals to do more creative work in systems without having to actually see everything. So I love the fact that as we strive to fully participate, we're creating tools that makes it easier for everyone, better for everyone.
Melissa Riccobono:
That's really why it should be nothing about us, without us. And that's why people should want blind people in their companies and blind people in all sorts of places in life. Because I totally agree with you, Anil. In fact, I was going to bring up that very point. And I think that that's why we're needed because we can come up with these ways that are different, but that might reach somebody else or help somebody else with understanding or I don't know. I think any curriculum that's a hands-on curriculum is a much better curriculum than one that just is let's teach to the test. And I don't know. So I think that's great.
Anil Lewis:
But I'm also, again, very glad you mentioned NABS because it'd be awful if we didn't take advantage of this opportunity to talk about the National Association of Blind Students. And I also think we've been remiss in teasing about the scholarships without promoting our national scholarship program. We give thirty scholarships to blind students every year. If you go to nfb.org/scholarships, you still got time to apply at this recording time. It's getting close to February. The deadline's not until March 31st. So I encourage you all, and the key to successfully winning one of those scholarships is to get the committee to get to know you, but you have to do it in writing. So the essays are very important. And I see here in some of our notes that Josh, our producer, was talking about some comments in your essay about your background and was wondering if you would share some of that.
Joshua Olukanni:
And feel free to lead me in the right direction if I'm not hitting on the points you want me to. But ultimately, I grew up in Lawrenceville, Georgia to two Nigerian parents.
Anil Lewis:
Whoo-hoo, Georgia!
Joshua Olukanni:
Yeah, Georgia! And I have an older brother who is also blind, and we lived with our grandma back in Georgia. And growing up, my brother and I kind of had the collective mindset of kids just being kids and going out about our days, being very ignorant to the work that my dad had to put in, the work that my grandma had to put in, the work that people around had to put in to make sure that our lives continue to be stable. And then unfortunately, things drastically shifted because my father passed away in 2017. So with that passing away a lot of those responsibilities and a lot of the weight of those things that, like Anil was joking about at the beginning of a mortgage, all those things that adults have...
Anil Lewis:
That's not a joke (laughs)!
Joshua Olukanni:
It was not a joke. It was not a joke because after my father passed away, those things became my issues that I had to deal with on a daily basis. And so growing up, I genuinely do believe that it's given my brother and I a more realistic outlook earlier on than some of our peers of the things that adults needed to face. Because given at the time I was only 15, so having to sit down and call the mortgage people and pay these bills, these are experiences that when I talked to my friends about at the time, they were like, "Yeah, that's insane that you're even doing that." So I think that it also instilled a culture in our house of figuring things out and being okay asking questions, because ultimately, my grandma is from Nigeria and she is not entirely fluent in English. So that also created a barrier with talking to these different companies or talking to people that we needed to pay bills too. It's a sad reality, but whenever I go to Minnesota for a school, I really forget about some of these things because the reality is I'm not in it all the time. And then once I am back in Georgia, the realities of the situation are way more available and real for me to see. It honestly motivates me to hopefully at some point be at a point where financial freedom is attained and things can change for the better.
Anil Lewis:
And I think a lot of people miss, sharing like that, well, even in this podcast is wonderful, but that's really what makes a good scholarship essay because the committee wants to know the applicant's heart. I think a lot of people take a whole lot of time talking about the academic prowess, etc, which is really important. But letting our committee get to know you because the whole goal that we have is to build a bigger, broader community through that particular scholarship. Melissa, we probably better get to some of our social media stuff, or we'll end up running out of time. What do you think?
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, thank you all so much for such wonderful thoughts. And I guess before we get to social media, why don't we quickly ask for very quick one or two sentences, what's your one tip that you would give to other blind students? And Jenn, why don't we start with you?
Jenn Han:
Yeah, I mean, the tip that I would give is give yourself grace on the day that you face really hard things, but also know that really at the end of the day, you have to be your own biggest cheerleader. And to really understand, again, why you're pursuing what you're pursuing and that seeing yourself through it, whatever that is, whatever career that looks like is just going to be the most rewarding thing. And just to hold on to your reasonings and just be easy on yourself. Take care of yourself, I mean, truly. So yeah, that's my tip.
Anil Lewis:
Nice. That's good advice.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow. Very, very good advice. Trisha, how about you?
Trisha Kulkarni:
My advice would be to go beyond blindness. College is an incredible place that can teach you a lot about yourself and how you can move forward in your career, and you deserve an education just like everyone else.
Anil Lewis:
Nice.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow, and Josh?
Joshua Olukanni:
Yeah, I would say if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And I say that because I feel like when people surround themselves by that group of people that are where they want to be and are able to help them elevate to that level, that is honestly the magic of the National Association of Blind Students. I've experienced it multiple times, and I think that if people come, they will experience it. So join NABS is my quick pitch (laughs).
Anil Lewis:
(Laughs) nice.
Melissa Riccobono:
Ooooo, and how? If they want more information about NABS or they want to join NABS, how would they go about doing that, Josh?
Joshua Olukanni:
Yeah, so if you want to get more information on NABS, you can go to the NABS website at nabslink.org, and all of the NABS' board members' information is on there. So you could reach out to any of us and ask to join any committee or any of our seasonal efforts that we do, such as seminar or auctions. So yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
And I know there's a Midwest Student Seminar coming up. I know that of course the students will be in Washington, DC actually probably by the time this is published that will have passed. But you can maybe make some effort to come to Washington Seminar next late January, early February and be with the National Association of Blind Students. And of course, there is our National Convention in New Orleans, Louisiana, and that is a wonderful way, I love the students. That's actually how I joined the National Federation of Blind, was through the Wisconsin Association of Blind Students. And I still love going to NABS and student events because you guys can bring the energy. And so it's a really powerful way to network with other people who are experiencing similar situations, experiencing similar struggles. And so I definitely echo Josh, please join NABS. So we do have some social media answers.
We're talking about the careers that people have and what their advice would be once they graduate college and get into their careers, what they would say to people. And so Diane says, "I'm a retired educator who is legally blind. I have found over the years that you have to be clear and concise about what you need from others in order to succeed in your career. Don't ever be afraid to speak up for yourself." Nicole from Alabama says, "I am an upcoming cosmetology student for the fall of 2025. I'm speaking up for myself to have the assistance to achieve vocational goals and to not allow anyone or anything to hinder my progress." And I think those are two really good answers to that question. And I think that it really echoes a lot of what was talked about today on this podcast.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, very nice. Very nice. Well, this has not been as painful as I originally thought. Going back to reflect on those days in college have been kind of heartwarming and sharing it with these young adults has made it even that much more rich. So did either of you have anything you wanted to offer before we bring this wonderful conversation to a close?
Jenn Han:
No, just thanks for having us.
Joshua Olukanni:
Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Trisha Kulkarni:
Thank you.
Anil Lewis:
Awesome. It's been our pleasure. And if I can steal from advice that you all gave to our listeners, until next time, just remember to give yourself grace, go beyond blindness, and if you want to go far and go fast and go long, then go together. But until we meet again, remember, you can live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Blindness is not what holds you back.
Announcer:
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