Announcer:
Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast, presented by the National Federation of the Blind, the transformative membership and advocacy organization of blind Americans. Live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Hello, are you hungry? Well, please join us for this episode of the Nation's Blind Podcast and you'll get even more hungry. I'm Melissa Riccobono and I'm happy to be with you. And I'm here with our co-host...
Anil Lewis:
Anil Lewis. And yes, I'm hungry because I know the topic of this particular podcast. So...
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, I'm hungry as well. And just to give everybody an idea, we asked our people on social media, what is your favorite meal to prepare and what alternative techniques do you use to cook? And so Anil, why don't I ask you that question first and then we'll get to our other people that responded on social media.
Anil Lewis:
My favorite meal to cook is so much comfort food. I like to make a nice meatloaf with mac and cheese and Mexican cornbread with some collard greens. That is what I love to cook because that is what I love to eat.
Melissa Riccobono:
Nice. And do you like to cook, Anil?
Anil Lewis:
Yes, I do. And it's so funny. I mean, I never really enjoyed it, enjoyed it. It was a task up until I took some training at LCB and started cooking some things that normally I would not have. And then it became more of a, I don't know, a hobby, skill, whatever, because it's not about cooking at that point. It's putting something together. It gave me a whole different outlook on it. So yeah, I do enjoy cooking there. I just don't get as much time as I would like to do so.
Melissa Riccobono:
Right. Gosh, my favorite meal, well, if we're talking about meals, I guess my favorite meal to cook is something called poppy seed chicken. It is a chicken casserole with rice on the bottom and then chicken and a combination of sour cream and cream of chicken soup and some Ritz crackers and butter and poppy seeds on the top. And it sounds weird, but it's really good. I also love to cook cheesy potatoes, but they're not really a meal. They're more of a side dish.
Anil Lewis:
Well, depends (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
I like the simple. I also like cooking desserts, but do I like cooking? Is the question. And my husband has finally allowed me to take a deep breath and admit, no, I really don't love cooking. It's a task. As Anil says, I do it when I need to because obviously I do need to eat and my children need to eat. And when they were younger and President Riccobono was traveling even more and our lives were a little bit different, I was doing it pretty much all the time. And then the pandemic hit and all of a sudden it was wonderful because we were at home and then Mark decided that he would cook more and more and more. And so now he cooks more and he kind of gives me that permission to say, it's okay. You don't really like to cook. And I do, and he does. He loves, like you were saying, Anil, he loves putting things together. He loves trying new things. It's like an adventure for him. He's a recipe follower, but he's not afraid to change things up.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, yeah. You got to experiment.
Melissa Riccobono:
No, no. Nope. That's not me.
Anil Lewis:
Melissa says, I love Covid. It set me free. It freed me from the kitchen (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
I did (laughs). That part of Covid I did love. And I do. I'm not saying that I absolutely hate cooking and I'm fine at it. I can cook, I can do it. I like it though much more when I can really take my time. I like being in the kitchen by myself. I don't love tons of other people in my space while I'm cooking. And it's really a time thing. I love it when there's no that I don't feel like I have to rush. And I also do very much like to cook for people during specific times. So for example, if a friend loses a loved one or something like that, I really do appreciate the task of making them a meal so they don't have to worry about a meal and kind of cooking them some comfort food or some food that I would find really comforting to eat in that situation. There are definitely times that I do enjoy it and really want to do it, but otherwise, nope, somebody else can cook and I'm just fine.
Anil Lewis:
I must admit this topic took a different bent than I had anticipated, but I'm hoping that this has been therapeutic (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
It has. It has. So thank you for listening to me. But now we're going to talk about what our people said on social media because they do like to cook. I'm guessing becasue they answered this question.
Anil Lewis:
Let's find out. Yeah (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
Nicole from Alabama said, "My favorite dish to cook would be potato top broccoli casserole, yummy. One thing that I had to learn was timekeeping. Time is the best key factor. So make sure you time when everything should be done and check to make sure that it isn't overcooked or undercooked. Make sure that your oven and stove are raised so that you can tell whether you are cooking on low, medium, or high heat or so that you know what number to put your oven to. Last, but not least have good music to listen to because good music always has the food tasting good." Ooh, Nicole, you are a woman after my own heart. And yes, I absolutely love to cook in the kitchen with music, but she's actually the only person that answered that question, which surprises me. I know Karen Anderson loves to make sourdough. I know there's many others. Jack Mendez is like the food king. He makes all sorts of things. So there's lots of other people that I know cook.
Anil Lewis:
And you can go through the annals of our Braille Monitor, go to the recipes list and get a list of people who had their little recipes in there. So yeah, blind people love to cook. And I guess a lot of people are curious about how blind people learn to cook.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yes, absolutely. And we do have some panelists today that can tell us how they learned to cook and help to demystify this, because two of them are instructors at our two training centers. So first we have Cameron, is it L-or? Yeah. Cameron L-or. How are you Cameron?
Cameron Loehr:
I'm doing good, thank you.
Melissa Riccobono:
Great. And what center do you work at?
Cameron Loehr:
I am a living skills instructor at the Louisiana Center for the Blind.
Anil Lewis:
Woo-hoo. LCB. Tell our listeners what that is. What is that living skills instructor?
Cameron Loehr:
So I am the person that teaches students how to do day-to-day life tasks. So, doing laundry, grocery shopping, cooking of course, because that's a big one. I kind of teach it all.
Melissa Riccobono:
Nice. Very, very good. And did you have training at the Louisiana Center before you became an instructor?
Cameron Loehr:
Yes, I did. I graduated from the center in the spring of 2016.
Anil Lewis:
Nice.
Cameron Loehr:
Yeah, so I definitely would not be the cook I am today without the training. I definitely had to learn those blindness skills myself and am been better for it.
Anil Lewis:
And what's your favorite thing to cook, Cameron?
Cameron Loehr:
My favorite thing is sauces. So spaghetti sauce, Alfredo sauce. I like sauces.
Anil Lewis:
Nice. I thought you said sausages at first. I was like, yeah, me too. But yeah, sauces is good (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
(Laughs) do you do salsa or guacamole or is it more the hot, like the actual sauces that you make on the stove?
Cameron Loehr:
All of it. I do all of it now. My specialty is spaghetti. That's one of the family recipes I learned pretty young. And then I've really built on throughout the years and I just really like Italian food. So...
Melissa Riccobono:
What's not to like? Fantastic. And then we have Delfina Rodriguez. How are you Delfina?
Delfina Rodriguez:
I am fabulous. Thanks for having me.
Anil Lewis:
Fabulous. She says, yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
Thank you for being on. Yes. And where do you work and if you are a graduate from a training center, which training center did you graduate from and when?
Delfina Rodriguez:
I graduated the Colorado Center for the Blind back in 2013, and I've been working there pretty much ever since.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow. And what do you do at the Colorado Center?
Delfina Rodriguez:
So like Cameron, I also teach home, we call it home management. So I teach all the same skills including organizing, and often we get to go even shopping with students, which also includes clothes shopping, which is fun. So pretty much the same thing that Cameron does at LCB.
Melissa Riccobono:
Very nice. And so Anil is a proud graduate of the Louisiana Center for the Blind.
Anil Lewis:
Oh, we didn't hear what Delfina likes to cook.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh no, no. Well hold on. Just I'll get there. And I was just going to say that I have never gone to a training center, but I worked for two summers in the summer youth programs at the Colorado Center for the Blind. So I have a special place in my heart for Colorado. So we're both represented. So yes Delfina, what do you like to cook?
Delfina Rodriguez:
So I'm kind of the same as Cameron. I love the sauces. Alfredo, it's hard to mess up. It's delicious. It's got simple ingredients and it turns out every time also pesto making homemade pesto is always really funny. You can play with those ingredients and put it on a chicken or on a pizza or pasta or whatever. There's just so many options with pesto. And then if we're doing cooking and possibly eating, gravy and biscuits is where it's at. I'm from Tennessee originally.
Anil Lewis:
Oh yes. Oh my goodness.
Delfina Rodriguez:
Yes. I love the gravy and biscuits. So Cameron was talking, well talking about sausage, but I heard sausage as well. Yeah, I love some gravy and biscuits, sausage gravy. It's delicious.
Melissa Riccobono:
And I would love that recipe for easy Alfredo sauce. I am an Alfredo sauce lunatic. So yeah, I'd love that. If that could come that way our way, maybe we can put it in our show notes or something. That'd be kind of cool (laughs). So to both of you, how did you learn how to cook? Delfina, why don't we maybe start with you.
Delfina Rodriguez:
So I mean, I guess I started pretty young. I remember making even grilled cheeses and having corn tortillas. I would make these quesadillas pretty young. So I started off cooking early on and then I lost my vision back in 2010 and then went to the center for training starting in 2012. So really I bumped up my skills when I went to the center and got the tips and techniques and tricks and really just increased a lot of my knowledge around cooking. I'd never made homemade cinnamon rolls until I went to the center, and now we make them pretty often, which is delicious and fun.
Anil Lewis:
Nice. I heard they ship well too, so if you ever need to send any, (Delfina an Melissa laughs) just saying. Just saying. Yeah, I agree with you. It was so funny when I started taking classes, of course I lost my sight later in life too, and I started taking cooking classes. At first I was a little intimidated, but yeah, Marilyn, who was the instructor at the time, really challenged me to do some things I never would've even thought about doing. I mean even making cheesecake from scratch was pretty cool.
Melissa Riccobono:
Cameron, I know that you wrote something in the Braille Monitor about your cooking journey. So do you want to tell us a little bit about that article and then also just how you learned to cook?
Cameron Loehr:
Yeah, absolutely. So I was born blind and unfortunately I did not grow up in the kind of family that was comfortable with me being in the kitchen. I pretty much was told to stay out or wasn't really given the opportunity until I was in my teens. The summer before I started my sophomore year of high school, all of a sudden my parents decided that I needed to learn how to cook. I guess they'd finally realized that eventually I'd have to live on my own at some point.
Anil Lewis:
(Laughs) good for them. Good for them.
Cameron Loehr:
So they decided that I was going to cook dinner every night for a summer, and it was decided because my mom wasn't much of the cook, she was the convenient cook. So she was good at the easy, simple recipes, the box things, but she was not the cook and she is also sighted, so she didn't really know how to help me or teach me. My dad, however, was a cook and he didn't cook very often, but he really loved it. He was the type to always watch the Food Network and he was blind himself. So he decided he would teach me, which teaching me meant sitting there telling me what to do. But it was also when I learned what shoe chef meant. So my dad spent the summer teaching me how to cook, how to do basics of how to cook chicken and make sure it was done, how to brown ground beef for a hamburger helper and even how to put seasonings in the palm of my hand so I knew how much seasoning I was putting in the spaghetti sauce.
So we did that and that was kind of where I learned the basics of cooking. Now in that same sense, my dad, while he was legally blind, he did have significantly more vision than me. So he taught me some non-visual techniques, but it was very minimal really. So I still was really learning to cope with what vision I had at the time. Well, I did not keep that vision. So around five years later when I was in college, I had really slowly but surely been losing that vision until I'd gotten to the point where I really didn't have it. I couldn't see to read anymore. I couldn't see to know if the meat was done based on the color, stuff like that. So I kind of stopped cooking there for a minute.
Anil Lewis:
But you were in college though, so you just needed ramen noodles. That's all.
Cameron Loehr:
Exactly. I very much learned how to cook five minute instant rice. And while I didn't necessarily have the space or the time to cook, it was still really hard for me to not be able to cook. I did actually enjoy it. I liked sharing what I made with other people. And during this time around the same time, I was losing vision, my dad had been sick for a while and then unfortunately passed away. So losing him and then losing the one connection I had with him, which is our shared passion for cooking, was very difficult. So it was learning how to cook again and how to do it non-visually was very important to me. It was not the only reason I came to training, but it was definitely a big factor in why I decided to come to training when I did. So I ended up taking a year off college and seeking out training and doing that as soon as possible so I could gain the skills.
So what I got from learning how to cook at the center was learning how to do it non-visually and fully without vision in a way that was much more dependable than I had originally learned. So I gained that ability to cook back and that connection with my dad in the process. And then from there I went from just knowing how to cook and enjoying it a little bit to really falling in love with cooking. Once I had skills to do it, it turned into a true passion, a true hobby for me. So I went from just cooking to eat, to cooking to try new things and experiment in solving the problems that come with trying to cook something new or something outside of my wheelhouse.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow, that's amazing. So this has been a wonderful discussion so far and we do need to break for a quick ad. And after that we're going to talk about alternative techniques that our cooks use in the kitchen. So you're listening to the Nation's Blind Podcast.
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Melissa Riccobono:
Welcome back. So alternative techniques were just mentioned by Cameron, and so why don't we though go to Delfina first and talk about maybe, I don't know, there's so many techniques that I use in the kitchen that are alternative maybe. First of all, why don't you explain just a little bit about what is an alternative technique, what do we mean by that? And then maybe, I don't know, your three favorite alternative techniques that you use in cooking. How does that sound?
Delfina Rodriguez:
Yeah, okay. So to me, alternative techniques just how do you get the job done in a way to get the job done. So different techniques and tools that I use, we use as blind people to make whatever we're making do whatever tasks we're trying to do would be my definition of an alternative technique. And I think my three top ones, okay, let me think so lining up pans is huge. I remember when I first went blind, I had a flat top stove. I thought it was going to be the end of cooking for me. So I really came up with great ideas. I was like, I can make some silicone mold, I will put them down, they won't burn that way. I had all these great ideas and then I went to the center and I was like, oh, oh yeah, I've got these tools and techniques that I don't need. These gadgets, these silicone molds that was going to be a top seller, it's going to make me a million dollars. Really just how do you line up your pan either on a gas, an electric, on the flat top. It's pretty simple once you know the techniques. So that's probably my top one.
Melissa Riccobono:
What is the technique? Yeah, go into it. People might be wondering, how do I do that?
Delfina Rodriguez:
Yeah, alright, makes sense. So the flat top still we'll start there. Really, so the ones that I am used to using, and I don't think this is across the board, but it has a little bit of a texture difference where the actual burner is compared, where the burner is not. So you can feel that when it's turned off. So you touch everything as always. I always tell students first things first, clear off your stove and then while you can still touch everything, line up your pan and make sure it's nice and centered. And then specifically with the flat top, when you turn it on, super easy to tell. You just hover your hand around the pot or the skillet and then you cover up the heat and that's all you really need to do. Now, why I didn't think of that when I first went blind, not sure, but here we are.
And then moving forward with the electric stove top, I love using a metal butter knife like a cane. So then I get a lot of feedback that way and I just touch around the skillet and I make sure it's nice and centered. I feel where the drip pan is compared to where my pot is and then I just line it up appropriately as well as using that technique where you hover your hand and gas can be a little bit more tricky just because of how it's raised a little bit, but still totally doable. So centering your pan, I think that's a huge one. And then just other techniques, like being able to tell when chicken's done or proteins are done. And one of my favorite things to cook with students is just making cookies because it's fun to tell when cookies are done and then you get cookies. So using those techniques are really fun to learn and then easy to do.
Anil Lewis:
Delfina's, she holding out on all the secrets. So you have to go to a training center to learn how to tell.
Delfina Rodriguez:
Sorry. I know, okay, with job security (Delfina, Anil and Melissa laughs). With cookie though, I'll tell you with cookies, right? You're feeling for the edge of the cookie. So usually the center of your cookie is still going to be pretty gooey, so you just ignore that and you're feeling for the firmness of the outside of the cookie. You want me to talk about chicken too?
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, go ahead. Talk about chicken too.
Delfina Rodriguez:
So obviously there's talking thermometers out there. I don't love those things. I don't think they're always accurate. So it makes me a little nervous. But it's a tool, right? Have in your back pocket, but just to touch chicken, right? So when it comes out, I always say I just do a quick touch on it and I'm feeling for bounciness. So for me bounciness means that the middle is uncooked and the outside is cooked, which is really what we're looking for is the middle. And then if I still am not sure I do the technique, I grab that butter knife and I just stab it straight down and then what I'm feeling for is the rawness in the middle. So you think about cutting a raw piece of chicken with a butter knife, it does not go, it's not going to work so well. So you're really trying to feel if the knife goes through all the way considering right, it's chicken, so it may have some resistance but it shouldn't have major resistance. And then number three, if all else fails, I just open it up and then you can kind of pinch it in the middle. And especially white chicken breasts, that tends to shred up pretty easily. I think chicken thighs are a little harder to tell, but still doable.
Melissa Riccobono:
Got it. Really, really great techniques.
Anil Lewis:
Everybody go out and cook some chicken and cookies (Delfina laughs). Just out of curiosity, before we go to Cameron though, Delfina you and Cameron both learned to cook again after you lost your sight, what were you most anxious about or what gave you the most pause in trying to cook?
Delfina Rodriguez:
I don't know how this is going to sound, but I wasn't very anxious in the kitchen. I felt pretty comfortable in there.
Anil Lewis:
Nice.
Delfina Rodriguez:
I feel comfortable putting my hand into a skillet that's a little warmer. I'm not touching the skillet right? But I'm using that to assist me and check things and I don't, I actually do teach that sometimes, but not to everyone, just if the comfort level is there. I think overall I felt pretty comfortable. Yeah, pretty comfortable in the kitchen. I'm certain there's things that I don't feel great about. Flipping pancakes or eggs I think can be pretty difficult, but doable. I feel pretty comfortable in the kitchen.
Anil Lewis:
Good, nice.
Delfina Rodriguez:
I'm not trying to, I got it. I'm not trying to work with squid. What about that? I know that we have had a student before come in with a squid. I had no idea about it. I didn't want to touch it, I don't want to work with it (Melissa laughs). We did. We did. But working with weird things like that, and I'm not saying it's weird, working with different things, I think we'll do it, we'll work through it. But once again though, I'm not really cooking that in my daily life. So pretty comfortable overall.
Melissa Riccobono:
So Cameron, the same two questions for you. What are your three top techniques, alternative techniques for cooking? And explain them if you can. And then also what types of things gave you anxiety during or before your training, particularly when it came to cooking?
Cameron Loehr:
I think that Delfina worded what alternative techniques is perfectly, absolutely agree. As far as my three top alternative techniques, and there are so many, I would have to say one of my funnest ones is knowing when the skillet is hot enough for you to put oil in it. So I call it the water trick when I teach it to students and all I'm doing, I'm teaching them to get your hand wet or get a bowl of water and keep it next to the stove and just dip your hand in there. And then periodically you're going to flick that water at that pan and you're going to listen for the sizzle. So if you have a really long sizzle, your pan's not warm enough yet. If you have a sizzle that's about a second, it's the right temperature that we want to put the oil in. But if you have a sizzle that immediately evaporates, that pan is too hot and we actually need to turn down that heat or take the pan off the heat in order to cool it down a little bit before adding oil, especially if we're working with a sensitive oil like olive oil, which will start to smoke if it overheats. That's definitely one of those that I teach all the time because it does make a difference in the texture of the food when it comes out cooked if the oil is the right temperature when you add the food.
Anil Lewis:
Oh that's a new one. I hadn't heard that one. That's nice.
Cameron Loehr:
Yes. And then I definitely use the one, I definitely use centering my pan on the stove and doneness for chicken as well, just as Delfina does. Now when I teach my students doneness indicators for meat, I very much have multiple indicators. I want them to be able to name and I compare it to how they have to know the difference in a street in a driveway. I want them to be able to really name off the indicators in their head. So I actually have six. So you'll have just like Delfina mentioned, the firmness of the meat. So we poke the meat with our finger and it's going to be firm, not bouncy, not pliable. If you stick a fork or a butter knife into it, it's going to have some resistance. We want that resistance. It's also often going to stick to a fork, so I should be able to pick up the chicken from the skillet with the fork and it not fall off if it's still raw, if it's undercooked, you're not going to be able to lift that fork very high with that chicken on it before it falls off.
Meat also shrinks when it cooks, so it should be a little smaller in size. Of course the outside texture for most when you cook it, except if you boil it, is going to be rougher on the outside. So you have that roughness factor. So the outside's cooked, it's going to smell done if you have a sense of smell. So you're going to have that smell of cooked meat also. So I kind of train my students in the beginning to identify all six indicators and be able to do it confidently the first time before I stop kind of prompting them to do, prompting them to do that. And then I think the third one I decided I would mention is what I call the path of no resistance. And I use that one a lot with my students, but we'll start with the grilled cheese. So I'll teach them that how when you're able to flip that grilled cheese is when it doesn't stick to your pan. So you have no resistance whatsoever if you're in a non-stick pan or you have very little resistance in every other kind of pan so it doesn't stick. And that ends up applying for the hamburger, for the pancake, really for the chicken you cook in the skillet. Meat likes to cling to the skillet when it cooks. So when that bottom side is fully cooked, it's not going to stick. And if it sticks, it's not ready to be flipped.
Melissa Riccobono:
That is fascinating. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing all those. And then how about any anxiety that you had when you started cooking or were cooking when you were training?
Cameron Loehr:
And I think the anxiety was there both times. I first learned to cook and then again when I went for training, I was pretty comfortable in the kitchen. My only real thing was accidentally burning myself. It is a pretty normal fear I feel like. And it really was just you don't want to get hurt. And really what it came down to is after the first time that I did it, I realized it was because I wasn't following the directions of my instructor at the time. And then it wasn't a big deal after that because I started following the directions, I started using the technique and following the directions.
Anil Lewis:
Learning just that immediate feedback to let you know that. Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love it. My fear, interestingly enough, when I went through training, I love bacon and I grew up flipping bacon in my pan with a fork and I just didn't, I tried using my fork as the cane and the skill, I just wasn't successful. And I was thinking, oh, I'm going to have to give up bacon. But my teacher said no here. And she gave me a set of tongs and that made all the difference in the world just flipping bacon with tongs. And then the other thing that I thought was pretty cool, and it's not necessarily a blindness technique, but I was talking about that cheesecake. I had to had to separate the egg whites and she gave me this little separator, I just couldn't use it. And she taught me how to separate the egg whites just in my hand with my fingers. And I just like doing that just for the sake of being able to do it. Interesting. Where there's a will and a hunger, there's a way (Cameron and Melissa laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
Absolutely. So we have one more guest that has joined us. We have Elizabeth Rouse. How are you Elizabeth?
Elizabeth Rouse:
I am so good, Melissa, how are you?
Melissa Riccobono:
I am doing great. We have two instructors on the call with us. We have Cameron and Delfina, you're not an instructor of cooking, but you were a former student. I understand somewhere. Where were you a student?
Elizabeth Rouse:
I was actually half of Cameron's former student at the Louisiana Center for the Blind. I went to training in 2021 and the first couple of months I was there, my instructor was Conrad. And when Conrad left the center, Cameron got stuck with me. So poor them.
Melissa Riccobono:
(Melissa and Anil laughs). Fantastic. And so Elizabeth, we're going to talk to you just a minute about the questions that we've asked our other guests. How did you learn to cook?
Elizabeth Rouse:
Trial by fire? No pun intended. No, there was no fire. There was no fire, I promise. So I grew up doing, I would say halfway non-visual cooking. My parents were never afraid to put me in the kitchen. I loved to bake. I was right there with Anil, but I wasn't good at doing it in a way that could have kept me safe, long-term.
So I actually had decided about halfway through my undergraduate degree, I won a little thing called the National Federation of Blind Scholarship. And when I went, I noticed all these people who were doing these amazing, incredible things had gone to training and I was like, hmm, I'm sensing a pattern here. So I went and I toured the Louisiana Center for the Blind and I fell in love with some of the people down there. They just had incredibly big hearts and I was like, this is where I'm going to be, this is where I'm going to learn. And I started with something as simple as cracking an egg and I ended with a meal for forty. So I got to the brunt of what I know at LCB.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow. And what is your favorite thing to cook?
Elizabeth Rouse:
My favorite thing to cook? Okay. So I think it depends on the day. Sometimes I'm feeling really inspired and really daring and sometimes I'm like, I just came home from an afternoon of teaching fifth and sixth graders, where's the crockpot? I can barely move (Anil laughs). So I would say on a standard, I love to bake. I have never lost that Love Anil. I'm right there with you mostly because I think baked goods make people the happiest. When I show up and I have brownies with me, people are like, oh, you can come back.
Anil Lewis:
(Laughs) It's true.
Elizabeth Rouse:
So I'm a big baked goods person, but if we're going strictly cooking, I will always have a love in my heart for my meal for forty. I've been a lasagna girl through and through. My mom, shout out to Monica, I think makes some of the best lasagna in the world. It's super simple, but it is delicious and it is just this amazing comfort food for me. So I actually made, I call it mamaca's lasagna for part of my meal for forty. And it was a really big hit. We had a blast making it, the chaos of the kitchen, but that's probably the quickest answer.
Melissa Riccobono:
My gosh. A meal for forty. Let's get into that a little bit.
Elizabeth Rouse:
Absolutely.
Melissa Riccobono:
Because that is a huge, so when you're at the center, for those that don't know, part of your training, you have many different goals that you have to achieve in order to graduate from your program. And one of them is a smaller meal, what is it, eight or ten? Like a dinner party type thing?
Elizabeth Rouse:
Eight.
Melissa Riccobono:
Okay eight, and then to graduate your final cooking project, and I think it's usually on your graduation day or sometimes at least very close to your graduation day, is this meal for forty.
Anil Lewis:
Now at CCB it's more, right? What is the meal at CCB is it sixty?
Delfina Rodriguez:
Sixty people. And then we do a mini meal as well, which is fifteen people in between those two meals.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh, okay. So you have Wow. Wow, okay.
Delfina Rodriguez:
Yeah, I don't want to scare anyone off if you're thinking about coming, but it's sixty. Yep.
Elizabeth Rouse:
Don't be scared by it. It is one of the most empowering experiences you'll ever have. It's incredible.
Anil Lewis:
And it is kind of intimidating when you hear that at the beginning, but because of the training, as you gradually progress and learn more and more, you actually start looking forward to the challenge of doing that. Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, and I was just going to say, a lot of people have never made, unless you have a big family...
Elizabeth Rouse:
Exactly (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
for holidays and things, I would guess that the majority of the population has never made a meal for forty. Maybe has never made a meal for eight. Eight, maybe? Maybe fifteen. Forty or sixty? Unless you are again having a big family or there's a reason for you to do that, you usually don't do that. So you made your lasagna, what else did you make for your meal for forty?
Elizabeth Rouse:
So Cameron's going to correct me if I'm wrong. I believe the criteria for both your meal for eight and your meal for forty, at least at Louisiana Center for the Blind, is you have to do an entree, you have to do a grain, a vegetable, a dessert, and a drink, all from scratch. So my menu, Cameron, was an incredible support to me and I was a little bit of a unique case, Melissa, because I was actually there January through September. I did both of my meals during the month of June. So I was actually done with home management with the exception of grilling, which is still the bane of my existence.
I was done middle point of June. So I got this document in the middle of May and it was like, "Here's your criteria for hosting a dinner party." I was like, this is the largest dinner party of my life. I'm ready. The guidance that I was given was do something You know how to make, something that's new, something that's easy, and there's a couple more. But I started thinking through that angle. I had made lasagna before. It was a recipe that I was very comfortable with, even though it was multiple steps, I also knew I could prep it. I could make most of it days in advance. It would just be popping it in the oven the day of.
So I did lasagna, I did homemade garlic, drop biscuits, and if you try and pop eighty of those into an oven, good golly, you have a blast (Melissa and Cameron laugh). I'm such a picky vegetable eater and Cameron is laughing at me, because they know this too. I wanted to go simple. So I did fresh green beans. They were just seasoned, light sea salt and oil kind of stuff. And one of the best compliments that I got the day of my meal as Cameron walked up to me and they said, "You know girl, you don't like to eat vegetables, but you sure can season 'em." And I was like, score, I'm ready (Anil and Cameron laugh). And then I think I did a white cake recipe that was kind of up in the air. It was going to be jello poke cake. And then I kind of got on a time crunch. So we pivoted.
So we did white cake and then I had a really chocolatey frosting and then a kind of chocolatey frosting that was actually just me not cleaning the beaters between trying to make chocolate and vanilla frosting. And then I did fruit infused water. It was strawberry and lime water. So it was a lot of chopping and I can't say no fingers were harmed in the making of this meal because the green beans did me in. But it was a blast. I mean it was my obsessive compulsive dream because I got to make a plan and I got to stick to the plan and I had a blast.
Anil Lewis:
I'm starving. I am starving.
Elizabeth Rouse:
You tell me when, I can make it again.
Anil Lewis:
Right now. Right now (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
That sounds amazing. I love that It's a document that you got, you had that guidance.
Elizabeth Rouse:
I still have (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
It reminds me a little bit of, and this is very different, but my daughter when she was in first grade, wanted to make a meal for a nice meal for a grownup because she saw her dad and me hosting people and making meals.
Elizabeth Rouse:
Aww.
Melissa Riccobono:
She wanted to make a meal for her first grade teacher and she did. And that was exactly how we approached it. Now of course she was in first grade, so it was a little different and it wasn't a meal for forty, but it was note cards and what do we need to do to make this meal happen? And then we broke it all down, okay, what can we do today (which was a couple of days before)? What do we need to do the day of? What order do we need to do things in? What time do we kind of need to think? So it was such a great, it's one of my favorite memories of my daughter and it's kind of those same things.
Anil Lewis:
Now is this Ori or Elizabeth?
Melissa Riccobono:
This is Oriana.
Anil Lewis:
And she still loves to cook doesn't she?
Melissa Riccobono:
She still loves to cook. Yes she does.
Anil Lewis:
She takes after her dad (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
Yes she does. Yes she does. But anyway, really cool.
Elizabeth Rouse:
I think the incredible thing with this process too, and we talk about this with non-visual skills training all the time, is you're not thrown into the deep end and told good luck swimming. You build the skillset throughout the time that you're there and you become a more organized thinker in every facet. So you've got some people who can cook with their heart. I am not one of them, okay (Anil and Melissa laugh). People are season with your soul and I'm like, how about a teaspoon? Does anybody have a teaspoon (Melissa laughs)?
Anil Lewis:
Or like my grandma. Just put a jigger of that, a little shake of there (Melissa laughs).
Elizabeth Rouse:
I can't Anil, I'm a baker, I can't do it.
Anil Lewis:
For me it's like putting together furniture. I need to have specific...
Elizabeth Rouse:
Exactly (Anil laughs). Give me an Ikea manual, give me an Ikea manual to the kitchen. But it also, right, it helps you be this free thinker. I remember my meal for forty was simultaneously one of my big like, oh my gosh, I can do this moment that and drop routes. I was so glad I was wearing learning shades during all this because I was like, I'm crying over here, but nobody knows. It's fine. I'm a capable adult. But it also teaches you how to deal with an appropriate amount of stress. You get organized, you learn how to do it. We had new students coming into the center, literally their first couple days were my meal for forty. And you have to learn to effectively communicate, not only to keep people safe, but to keep yourself sane. Right. It is, dude, lovingly and respectfully, you are in this kitchen right now, this kitchen. I hate to break it to you. This is my kitchen and if you are in my way in my kitchen (laughs), woo baby, we're going to have some times and you have to learn to deal with that. But you get to the serving line and you get to invite people that matter to you. My high school foods teacher is one of my mom's best friends and she got to watch me be a sophomore in high school who relegated myself to washing dishes because I didn't want to do anything non-visually in an environment that I didn't feel safe. She drove down to Louisiana with my mom and my aunt and she got to be at my meal for forty.
Anil Lewis:
Wow.
Elizabeth Rouse:
It was just this immaculate experience of a full circle moment. It just warms my heart to this day.
Anil Lewis:
You're absolutely right. When you make those accomplishments at the different milestone moments of training, it really feels good. But there's something special about that meal for forty. Yeah, you feel good about accomplishing that, but the real joy is standing there watching everybody enjoy your meal. There's no other kind of validation at any of the training where you get to celebrate with everybody like that.
Elizabeth Rouse:
That's true. That's true. You have your moments where you take pride. Right. I remember coming back from my monster walk, they call it a monster walk at other places, we call it a 10k. I think mine was longer than that because Marco was picking on me (laughs). But I walked in and I literally said, stand up old man, I'm giving you a hug. And I was bawling and he's laughing at me. You have those moments that are like your individual prides, but then you get to sit back and you're like, I have made people happy today. And I think another really cool element, my meal is some of my stuff was easy. My garlic biscuits, even though there was eighty of them, they were easy (Anil laughs). So people that followed me in training, my friend Neil, who's actually working in Virginia right now, he was a couple months behind me in training and this is such a cheesy moment, but Neil emailed me and was like, "I need your drop biscuit recipe, my meal's coming up." And I was like, oh, my legacy lives on. So there's a lot of sharing and love that comes into and goes out of a kitchen.
Anil Lewis:
Very nice.
Melissa Riccobono:
Absolutely. So we've heard a lot about Louisiana. Delfina, can you add anything about the meals? Obviously you have three in Colorado. Are there other things that you would say from an instructor side, what you see students, how you see them grow, what advice you give them as they're doing these meals?
Delfina Rodriguez:
Yes. I'll just say that we see people that come in pretty often that just don't get the opportunities to be in the kitchen. So for instance, one student, this is several years ago, they didn't even know what a can opener looked like. So then nine months later they are making a homemade salad dressing, just this complete meal independently. We're there to support, but he made that meal totally on his own. And to come from not even recognizing a can opener, to be able to do that, I think it's huge. It's huge.
Anil Lewis:
That's powerful. Yeah.
Delfina Rodriguez:
Yeah, it's huge. And I think we see students come in pretty often that are intimidated by the stove top. And that's kind of ingrained in them because they've always told, don't touch, it's hot, don't do this, don't touch all these things. When we get people in the kitchen, I'm like, all right, now you're going to look around, open up all the drawers, open up all the cabinets. I want you to check out and touch everything. And a lot of people have never had that opportunity to get in the kitchen and touch everything and know it's okay to touch everything. Accidents happen, things happen. It's not a blind thing, it's a cooking thing. And I think we need to keep that in mind as well that we can burn ourselves. We're not trying to burn ourselves, but it happens if you're in the kitchen cooking at some point it's going to happen and it's okay. So working through those fears, sometimes people have pretty big fears and they don't even want to get close to the stove top or the oven. So I'll have people touch it while it's cold, touch the inside of the oven while it's cold, we'll put things in and out of a cold oven with and without oven mitts, just so you can get a feel of it, understand where the racks are, that sort of thing.
And just work through that fear a little bit. And then we turn the oven on, we're there, got our oven mitts on putting things in and out of the oven. And I think it helps knowing that you can grab the pan, put it in the oven with no issue, I think just helps. And then feeling the heat, understanding that you're not going to get burnt if you take these precautions. And it's fine to get in there and do those things. With our meals, we do have the three requirements in home management. So our first one, we actually cook a meal just for six people and we call that the dinner party. And they have that at their apartment, which is really fun. Same thing, we still do a document with all the timeline, just like you guys were talking about a complete grocery list. So our first meal feeds six people and then it moves on to the fifteenth person.
And then of course on graduation day they do serve their meal for sixty. And for the graduation, the mini meal, you get more days, the dinner party, you get the day of. You go grocery shopping, wearing the learning shades if you've got residual vision, take public transit and then go home and make this meal and serve in the evening. And it sounds intimidating and overwhelming, but just like you said before, it's a process. So we have worked with you to get to this point. Your travel instructors have worked with you to get to this point, and then we make accommodations when needed. But overall, everyone does a really nice job. There's successes and that's what it's about. And I'll tell you almost every time, not every time, people also don't love cooking, but not everyone does. But the confidence, they didn't realize that they could not only go shopping but make this meal for their friends and family and it's huge. It's huge. Or they're like, oh, I never thought I'd be able to cook for my family again. And then here they are making these great dishes.
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, I mean, I think this has been a fantastic conversation. Anil do you have any other questions or should we ask these lovely participants if they have anything else to share?
Anil Lewis:
As I sit here salivating (Melissa and Cameron laugh), you guys go ahead and offer any last parting words that you have to our listeners. We appreciate that.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, Cameron, go ahead. We haven't heard from you for a minute.
Cameron Loehr:
Okay. So I definitely agree with everything Delfina said. When it comes to the large group meals, really the key to being successful and enjoying it and being happy with it when you are done, a lot of it does come from the planning ahead before you ever actually start cooking. But then also staying calm during it and having techniques to manage some of the pressure and some of the anxiety. I'm always telling students, they'll like panic on day one of it. Normally you're working for about three days off and on and they'll think they have to rush everything. And I just have to be like, take a deep breath, stay calm. It's not crunch time. I'll tell you when it's crunch time. And until then you're not allowed to worry or panic. Having to kind of help them manage that, they put some of that pressure on them and they absolutely have the skills by that point to do it, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.
But sometimes they just don't believe that until after it's done and it's over with. So I've definitely worked with students when I have students who are more kind of nervous or they put more pressure on themselves than really necessary, we've worked through that throughout the time they're in training. Every little turn or step up we take that kind of shows back up and we work on how can I as the instructor help you work through that. And then once we've discovered what works for them, then I teach them how to do those things for themselves. So by the time they get to their large group mill, they have those skills and they have the confidence at the same time because they're just putting what they've learned together. And I've had many students kind of after the large group meal, after they've had it done and over with and they've had a chance to sleep (Anil and Cameron laugh).
Anil Lewis:
That's real. No, that's real. Yeah.
Cameron Loehr:
Yeah. That it wasn't as hard as they thought it was and that it was actually kind of fun. Or at least they know they can do it and they are happy they did it.
Melissa Riccobono:
That's great. And I love what Elizabeth said about pivoting because that's part of it too, right? Okay, this didn't go as well or this, you're running short on time. What can be your plan B? That's such an important skill as well that no, it's not going to be just ruined. We can pivot and you can figure something else out. So I'm guessing that's also in the document kind of your, what's going to be your plan B in case something completely falls apart.
Cameron Loehr:
I don't think it's really in the words, but we work on that so much. If you were to ask me, we talk a lot about problem solving and structured discovery, but if you were to ask me what subject teaches problem solving and how to do it fast, it's cooking.
Anil Lewis:
(Anil laughs) you have a little bias, just a little bias. I think there's some travel instructors might challenge you on that, but yeah, you go right ahead.
Cameron Loehr:
Absolutely. But there's so much that can go wrong in the kitchen. And so much it can be outside of the students' control. But from day one, we are learning how to pivot and standing there and I'm teaching them how to problem solve. And at first it's me giving them options of like, oh hey, this is the problem. This is what went wrong, this is how you could solve it. To moving to them giving me the options and bouncing the ideas off me and being like, "Oh, that's great." Or "I don't know," to them being able to do that for themselves by the large group mill and just watching them grow in that area.
Anil Lewis:
This has been wonderful, but it really has made me hungry. I really appreciate you guys sharing the way you did. Delfina and Cameron, you guys should take a great deal of pride in the work that you do. I hope Elizabeth's sharing of how the epiphany she's had in her learning, and you get that with every student that you work with. So hopefully you find it very rewarding, but I do appreciate it.
Elizabeth Rouse:
Whoa, whoa, whoa, Anil every student. I got to be close to the top of the favorites list. Let me have my moment up here (laughs).
Anil Lewis:
Well, I didn't want to put Cameron on blast (Anil and Elizabeth laugh) and she only shared you. You were half, were only half of a student for her. That's true. Yeah. So you can't be the top of her list.
Elizabeth Rouse:
I will tell you though, Cameron got me for the easier months. I will offer that. My first instructor had to learn that I am a little snotty sometimes (Anil laughs). Bless his soul. But I mean, I remember the way that I see training, right, is you have to learn to laugh and you have to learn to lean. And that's how you learn to love, right? You laugh at yourself, you lean on other people and you learn to love what you get to do. And I don't care if you have to learn by cough, cough, scraping, burnt, handmade french fries off of a cooking sheet that you didn't oil well enough (Melissa laughs). Or if you are leaning on, I swear to you, the army that helped me clean up after my meal for forty, if I did not have them, I would still be there. Okay? It's been years. I would still be there. There was pasta sauce in places you would not believe (Anil laughs). Okay? But that's how you learn to love. You can't raise a kid without a village. And I was a kid and now I feel like I'm slightly less of a kid. So thanks Cameron (laughs).
Anil Lewis:
I don't think there's any way we could close out better than learning that you should learn to laugh, lean and love. This has been a really good conversation. Really appreciate all of you for participating and hopefully our listeners got a lot out of this. And until the next podcast, remember, you can live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Blindness is not what holds you back.
Announcer:
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