This is being provided in a rough-draft format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.
MORISSA FREGEAU: I'm Morissa Fregeau. I am a silver-haired white woman with a polka-dot dress and a red jacket, with a fairy pin. Had to look!
And I work at Aflac.
And I spoke with Tim two years ago, and during that session, people came up to me afterwards and said, you know, you really should get your corporate friends to come to this conference and speak.
(Laughter)
So I spoke to Sudha, my corporate friend!
SUDHA RAJAN: We are SO corporate friends.
(Laughter)
I'm Sudha Rajan, I lead digital accessibility for United Health Group.. I'm -- we're going for this -- light brown skin, black hair with brown highlights.
And I'm wearing glasses that are clear and gold.
And I do have a T-shirt on, I will say, that says "Accessibility is never optional. Disability rights are human rights", which is one of my favorite T-shirts. So I have that on today. Along with a black stretchy blazer. MORISSA FREGEAU: So since we're a really small group, we want to be informal so if you have questions along the way, ask them.
But we're going to try and be informal with each other.
So tell us, Sudha, why are you passionate about accessibility at work. SUDHA RAJAN: A lot of different reasons. I've always been passionate about, I would say, inclusion, business -- I started as an attorney.. I was a litigator for a few years, so I've always had that background.
And I've always been passionate about inclusion in all its forms my entire life so accessibility being at the intersection of that. And I have a number of invisible disabilities and a number of my family and friends have visible and invisible disabilities, so this is very personal for me.
What about you, Morissa?
MORISSA FREGEAU: So I have a vision disability, which is interesting for me to say, because for many years, I didn't say the word.
(Laughter)
But, so, I was just telling Sudha and Gavin at lunch that -- in the job I have now, I was recruited.. I was at United.. And Aflac came and asked if I'd come work for them.
And then they asked me to upload my resume to their website.
And I said "No.. It's not accessible.
And I can't do it". I just can't do it.
And so I got accessibility when I went to Aflac, because they wanted to fix that. So I have learned a lot about my vision over the years. It has changed in many ways, now that there are medical advances. And most recently, I've been doing vision therapy, which I should have done when I was 5, but, like, who knew?
So now I'm 62 and get to do what I should have done at 5.
But anyways, my interesting point about when I listened, Tim, to you, at lunch about law school.. I, like, had no idea that I could advocate for myself at law school. Mostly what I did was tell professors "I can't see red, please stop writing on the board in red", and every day, I'd do the same things.
So I just -- I was passionate about accessibility because I didn't want people to have to go through what I did. And that also, the things that were really important to me about accessibility were that there are things that affect everyone, which I think is really important. Color contrast is not just something that I have a problem with, but, like, everybody can see better when your color contrast is correct.
And also, I came to the corporate world from the nonprofit world. And I thought, like, oh, you know, people are going to say I sold out.. I went to the corporate world from the nonprofit world.
But I really found out, and I've been in the corporate world for over 20 years now, that there is so much you can promote from within, that I was never able to do -- I was a social worker before I went to law school -- and there was so much I could promote from within, that I was never able to outside. So that was sort of my passion. So... that's us!
Thanks for joining.
SUDHA RAJAN: So I think then our next session was just giving a really brief description of both the companies that we're at. Do you want to do Aflac first?
MORISSA FREGEAU: Sure. So we're a lot different company than United. We're about a fifth of the size, maybe. We have about 5,000 employees in the U.S. and 15,000 independent sales agents, and the type of insurance we all do at Aflac -- y'all know the duck?
(Laughter)
We do mostly the bread and butter of the business is individual and group supplement insurance.
>> Sorry, he's joining you.
>> Sorry I'm late.
MORISSA FREGEAU: That's fine. Go to your right. There are seats to the right.
SUDHA RAJAN: Perfect. Glad you could join us. All right.
MORISSA FREGEAU: So the original part of Aflac was to do individual and supplemental insurance. Then we went into group supplemental insurance. So we sell cancer, hospital indemnity, and accident, that's the bread and butter of Aflac.
But we also do leave management, which includes disability accommodations for other employers. So we have a business that does that.
And we do group and direct-to-consumer dental and vision.
And we have group disability and group and individual life. So that's what Aflac sells.
Most of our plans, interestingly, at Aflac, which is very different from when I was at United, are pink and blue collar. So the majority of plans are sold to small businesses. And the small businesses, you know, are, like, beauty shops, small businesses within -- and that's probably about 80 to 85% of the business at Aflac.
The company was founded in 1955. It's still run by the same family, so it's different in that it's very much a family business and still has that family feel. You're sort of welcomed into that when you come. The other thing that Aflac does in the U.S... I'm only talking about the U.S... is that they have a children's center, so the children's center was founded to treat childhood pediatric cancer and sickle cell specialists, and it's a wonderful charity that Aflac has that gives free care to those children with that.
And we have been an Ethisphere ethical company for 19 years in a row, which is the amount of years that they have been doing the survey.
So Sudha, you want to tell us about UHG.
SUDHA RAJAN: Sure. So United Health Group is a parent company that has two main subsidiaries, Optum and United Health Care. Our team is the digital accessibility lead for all the enterprise, all subsidiaries. Our mission overall is to help people live healthier lives and make the health system work better for everyone. Optum is more about data-enabled care delivery -- there's a lot of other business functions -- I could stay all day and just talk about that. So we'll keep it high level. It's about 400,000 plus employees, 40,000 clinical, 50,000 customer facing, 38,000 technology professionals.
We serve 146 million plus people uniquely globally, including health plans in all 50 states, Medicare, Medicaid -- I think it's 1 in 5 Medicare beneficiaries -- and we have been named to the Disability Equality Index as one of the best places to work for people with disabilities and for disability inclusion in 2023, and also in some prior years as well.
MORISSA FREGEAU: So we wanted to talk a little bit about laws that affect corporations, and especially insurance. And I'm not going to go into them a lot, because I think you all probably know the laws. I did want to say, though, it's interesting, this morning, when we were talking about the end of Chevron and what that might mean for corporations.
And I can tell you for insurance companies, it's not really welcome. Most of what insurance companies rely on are guidance from federal agencies and regulations, because we like it better when we're told what to do, as opposed to leaving it up in the air and not knowing how to interpret.
So a lot of insurance companies are black-and-white. We don't think in the gray.
And so having agency orders and regulations help to guide that and makes it a lot easier to function, especially within our legal and compliance areas.
But we do have, you know, we do follow ADA in terms of Title I, Title II, and Title III. And, you know, the Rehab Act, especially in terms of the Medicare and Medicaid -- we don't have Medicare business anymore at Aflac, but certainly at United, they do.
And I think the one that is most interesting now is Section 57 in the ACA and how that's going to be interpreted. We at Aflac don't have any 1557 plans. When I was at United, we did -- lots.
So we have the laws through that, and also through contract.
And I think that's an important piece that you all should know about us, is that even if we're not required to follow a law, that a lot of times our customers obligate us by contract. So we may not be obligated, for example, in situations to follow 508. If we get a contract with a company that wants our insurance and says, "I need you to comply with this and provide us with readily accessible documents," etc., etc., then we will do that by contract. We did that a lot at United. We do that some at Aflac. We don't have a lot of big companies, so it doesn't happen as often.
But that is one big way that insurance companies follow -- how disability laws sort of get folded into what we do. The other thing that I think, especially as disability advocates we concentrate on federal law. I think that there are many state laws. So insurance is based on laws of every state. So as group insurance, we look at ERISA, we look at ACA, we look at all those things.
But we also have to follow all of the state laws. And there are -- so there are a series of states that incorporated by reference by the ACA, but there are others that actually wrote the words into their laws. So there are ones -- I just brought up Colorado, Georgia, Maine, Ohio, and Washington, for example have provider directory laws that require provider directories to be accessible to individuals with disabilities.
And the regulations themselves mirror the ACA, but they're in the law, so if the ACA goes away, they have it there already. So I think those are sort of my Reader's Digest version of the laws that affect insurance companies.
So I guess skip ahead.
SUDHA RAJAN: Now is our program section. Do we want to pause for questions or conversation or anything?
MORISSA FREGEAU: Do y'all have any questions?
>> So it seems like the U.S. has fallen slightly behind in terms of accessibility, you know, direct legislation, as compared to the EU. And even India has this, you know, thing that I think is getting a lot of attention. Is that affecting you guys, even though, you know, you're doing U.S. operations. Or not. I'm just curious if that's been siloed out, or are you seeing effects of that in your U.S. domestic work?
MORISSA FREGEAU: So there's not -- you know, so the EU law, like, for what we have to do as a corporation -- we don't have any EU business. Although we do have a business in Northern Ireland. So maybe I'll let Sudha answer the question.
But I don't think it's affecting as much. We have a big Japan business, and they have an accessibility law as well. We've actually -- we have a joint legal team meeting quarterly, and we have actually talked about accessibility and the differences between our countries in it.
And the laws themselves, you know, everybody follows WCAG in some way. So as, you know, for in terms of digital accessibility, I think that it's not far-fetched for us to follow, you know, what's going on in other places.
I think the more it becomes iffy in terms of what it is you're supposed to do, then it gets harder for us to follow.
SUDHA RAJAN: Yeah. I think I would echo at least some of what you were saying, which is for us, we treat the law more as a floor.
And so in that sense when the floor is lower, it doesn't matter as much to me.
And I'll get to this a little bit more when we talk about the program detail, but I guess as a sneak peek... so we have our own in-house enterprise digital accessibility standard that we strive to follow for all of our websites that includes WCAG, but also some other additional steps that we think are really important. So we're striving to meet that all the time.
And if that kind of goes above and beyond what the laws are here in the U.S., then, in that sense, we don't think about that -- or we are going beyond that anyway, I think, is what I would say.
So I'd think in that sense, the gap hasn't mattered for that reason. The other thing, and Morissa alluded to this, is we have plenty of commercial and government customers, big ones, that require accessibility and are very, in a great way, intense about that.
And so we have to make sure that we are meeting their needs, since they're our customers and their employees' needs. So that sets a high bar as well, in a good way. So in a sense, with U.S. law dragging behind, we don't have to think about it because we have to make sure we meet our business members' needs. I think people here know that 25% of Americans have a disability. So it is a legal issue, but more than that, it is a business issue, where if we want to serve our customers and serve them well, it means really getting this right. So I think for us, since those are some of the bigger drivers, it hasn't been an issue, I think. Does that answer the question?
>> It does. Are you able to share what are some of those above and beyond specifics. Beyond WCAG. I'm curious, where could we supplement WCAG, I guess?
SUDHA RAJAN: I wish we had an engineer here -- we have a guy on our team who specializes in that.
>> It's Ryan, isn't it?
SUDHA RAJAN: Ryan is one of many. So why don't we --
(Laughter)
MORISSA FREGEAU: Let's --
SUDHA RAJAN: Get into the program and we'll tell you but that's a great question, and I want to answer it. We'll get there.
MORISSA FREGEAU: So because we're a much smaller company, our accessibility program is much smaller. By the way, I think I already said this, I started at United, before Sudha started. So we worked towards getting an accessibility program at UHG. So it was always -- it's always really good for me to see something that I left behind better --
SUDHA RAJAN: I will also just interject and cut you off quickly and say that Morissa was a key mentor for me when I started, I was the lead accessibility engineer at Target, and I came to UHG as their first accessibility director. I wouldn't have made it without Morissa. So -- and you mentored me so much, and I will always be grateful.
MORISSA FREGEAU: Thank you.
SUDHA RAJAN: And I will say that, sentimentally, now.
(Laughter)
MORISSA FREGEAU: Thank you.
SUDHA RAJAN: I will.
MORISSA FREGEAU: At Aflac, our accessibility program started in 2019. It started as a compliance team, and sort of worked -- a compliance team that worked to put different elements together, that formed the accessibility team. And what we did, which was different, because a small organization, is that we don't have a special department that does accessibility.
We set up what we called our accessibility consul, and the council itself set standards and our accessibility policy, and worked with a vendor -- we work with Level Access. We've been working with them for, I don't know, going on seven years. It was really -- Aflac has a small amount of employees, but does a lot of business. So it's a very different model than I was used to, because they use a lot of vendors, outside counsel -- our law department, by the way, is 15 people, believe it or not. Which is really small!
So at United, there were 400 employees, just on the UHC side. So I went from this giant to this little, much smaller law department. So the accessibility counsel is made up of all the different website and digital properties area.
Aflac is not a digital-first company. They're kind of behind in that way. A lot of things are still on paper. So -- I know. Shake your head.
(Laughter)
It's kind of... interesting.
But, so, we established the council, we created the standard, which for us was WCAG 2.1 and AA. We established the complaint process.
And the council purpose was to provide strategic direction and oversight of any accessibility efforts. And the -- and it also looks to update any processes, standards, etc., in support of the accessibility policy.
And we meet -- we have regular meetings to discuss policies, training, updates to accessibility efforts, etc.. It is, I would say, even though it started in 2019, it's still growing and learning. It's a moving target. And in the digital world, there are a lot of people who move in and out. So we're still building that within.
So Sudha, why don't you tell what a big company does for accessibility?
(Laughter)
SUDHA RAJAN: Okay. So buckle up, because I feel like this is kind of a long description. So I'll take breaks. You should just interject!
MORISSA FREGEAU: Okay, I will.
SUDHA RAJAN: So just a little bit of the history so our Accessibility Center of Excellence was formed in 2016, and there were meaningful access efforts and other efforts that began before that in 2014. Ironically, Morissa has more of that history than me.
We've had a lot of accessibility initiatives over the years. As I mentioned a little bit, Optum has always had this team. And I started at United Health Care.
And then these teams worked together and always had one standard, but they were formally merged in 2022, and I became the first leader of the merged team, it is just a little bit of the history of the group.
Our main focus is on B to C accessibility, but we also do have employee accessibility initiatives and some B to B initiatives as well.
I would say, too, my team is the --
MORISSA FREGEAU: Can you just tell everyone what the alphabet soup means?
(Laughter)
SUDHA RAJAN: Yes.. Thank you.. Morissa will keep me honest! B to C is business to consumer, so what members of the public would use, as opposed to more software, business to business. So we prioritize most highly the stuff that members, consumers, and patients would use, but also stuff our employees would use as well. So those are the areas of prioritization for us. Any other alphabet soup. B to B, business to business, that's what an insurance agent would use, for example.
So we consider all of it to be in scope, but we always think about where we want to kind of target our efforts the most. The Accessibility Center of Excellence, which I lead, works to ensure that digital properties across the enterprise are accessible. I would also say, too, in terms of employee initiatives, there's some work we do on employee websites, making them accessible. There's a ton of other initiatives that the whole company does around employees with disabilities. So I won't get as much into that, because that's not my scope.
But there's a lot that the company does, a lot of that's available on our -- at least one of our websites. So my team has about 50 people, including -- I'm very fortunate to be able to say it's a very diverse team with people with different types of disabilities, also a lot of people who are neurodiverse -- I identify as neurodiverse as well. So I feel like that's one of our team's greatest strengths is that that type of diversity. So we get a lot of really rich perspectives. I think you were mentioned Ryan Strunk, NFB member and a leader in many ways. As a quick note, Ryan and I worked together at Target and have been friends for 11 years.. He joined UHC in 2018.
And I have four direct reports that lead the team with me, and Ryan is one of them. He actually just got promoted to director a few months ago, well deserved, as well as two of my directs, so now I have four directors. I'll share that with you because a lot of times in our industry it can be harder to get those higher level positions, so that was really good to see, and I felt well deserved. Ryan is one of those people. So I would say he's doing well.
But I feel very lucky to have him and everyone else on our team who contribute so many types of diverse perspectives.
So it's a 50-person team and we work across the entire enterprise. I know it sounds like a lot of people, and it probably is one of the bigger teams in the industry, but there's 38,000 technology professionals, like I said, and vendors that provide technology and digital properties, so it's a lot for us to manage. So we need a larger team to do that.
So just in brief, some of the elements we've got for this program, so I'll just read what other overall. Governance, communication, accessibility standards and procedures, integrating accessibility into culture and people's work, documents and content, vendors and third-party technology, training are kind of the overall areas where we focus the most, or the program elements.
And I can give more details -- how do we want to -- I don't want to derail this into too much detail. What do we want to do?
MORISSA FREGEAU: You might want to talk about your standards, because that answers what you were asking, Tim, about going above and beyond what the law is so maybe you want to talk about that a little bit.
SUDHA RAJAN: Sure. We can talk about that. So we have accessibility standards that obviously fit with laws, but one of the ways that we go above and beyond the law is that I -- if I remember correctly, federal statute still requires 2.0.
MORISSA FREGEAU: 2.1 is Medicaid. 2.1 is Medicaid, 2.0 is everybody else.
SUDHA RAJAN: Right. So it's -- anyway. We've always done what we can to go above and beyond the legal floor with the enterprise standards that we have. So we refreshed our internal company standards to 2.2 last year, and then we launched 2.2 this year, which I know is kind of a smaller change, but a critical one, nonetheless.
And we started having WCAG 2.1 as our corporate standard, I want to say, in 2019, I think?
MORISSA FREGEAU: It was before I left.
SUDHA RAJAN: So it would have been 2019. So even though that became the legal standard only recently and only partially, we were doing 2.1 as mandatory within our work starting in 2019. So that's one way we try to always be ahead of the law in terms of the most recent version of WCAG. So that's one way in which we go beyond.
And actually, when I was using my folder earlier, I was texting my direct earlier to be like, what are examples of us going above and beyond?
(Laughter)
So we explicitly require in our enterprise standards having an H1 heading on each page. That's just one small example. I think a lot of where it might get above and beyond is as we all know, WCAG can get very specific in some areas and very vague in others. So part of what our team does is, at a high level, is talk about how we should apply WCAG to our websites and giving more detail there.
Another way is, we have our internal accessibility standard, but we also highly prioritize finding the biggest design systems, brand guidelines, that kind of stuff, in the company, and really getting accessibility embedded there, because that has such a big payoff at scale. So an example I can think of -- exactly, I was just going to say, when we were doing our brand guidelines, was that WCAG 2.0 will allow, you know, the 3 to 1 contrast for large text, if I remember correctly.
And then 4.5 for smaller, right. So we were doing our brand guidelines, and this was several years ago, I was the person consulting on that, and I said, let's do 4.5 for everything, because people will be looking at this on a small screen, and at that time, the mobile update or whatever it was called when 2.1 came out, they said on a mobile device, 3.1 is not a good distinction. So I said for brand guidelines, let's make it 4.5 to 1, so we're platform agnostic and meeting a higher bar.
MORISSA FREGEAU: We did that as well at Aflac. Instead of 3.1, we did, I think it's 4 or 5. I can't remember.
But it's the higher color contrast standard.
And we changed what we call the Aflac blue colors to be the better contrast! Aflac Blue is not the same as it was!
(Laughter)
SUDHA RAJAN: So I think those are just some examples. It's about looking where we can go above and beyond, following the most recent industry standard, and also looking at how we can tailor WCAG so it fits with the stuff we're doing and we can be more consistent across these websites and platforms.
>> Can I ask an infrastructure question?
SUDHA RAJAN: Sure.
>> There is, you know, besides web accessibility, as you mentioned, but not within your purview is whether the employee-facing software, you know, from third parties is accessible.. And there's, you know, questions about transportation, events, all sorts of other things. And I think about Target, where they call Steve with any accessibility question. Whether it has anything to do with digital accessibility or not. And whether it's anything he would know anything about or not.
Do you have any kind of coordinated accessibility and inclusion infrastructure under which all these things fall.
And if so, could you describe it?
SUDHA RAJAN: Yes. At least I'll take a shot at that. So a couple -- it's a great group of questions. So first question. The employee accessibility for the digital experience is that does fall under my purview more.
And we do have an engineer on our team who focuses just on that.
And so, especially for larger systems that impact a lot of employees, we do, you know, do accessibility testing and everything.
I've also had several -- so we do do that. We do have that going.
Another thing we have, too, is that we have another part of our team that specializes in vendor governance. So we'll do accessibility reviews during the procurement process, we look at contract language -- we have an extremely close relationship -- we're embedded in the enterprise sourcing and procurement process and also have close relationships with the lawyers.
So when we have vendors requesting exceptions to our standard contract language, we work really closely with the lawyers on what that should look like. So we're really embedded there, and those are two ways that we try to get at -- you mentioned third parties and everything, that's really important. We try to get at that.
That's the digital accessibility piece.
I would say I'm also on the disability inclusion leadership advisory council for all of United Health Group, which is a collection of leaders throughout the company, a lot of whom have disabilities or are trying to make sure we have the best employee experience for those with disabilities. So I will at times get questions from random employees who encounter me in some setting, and when it's appropriate and relevant, I will elevate those questions to that council, and we often are able to get stuff done.
For example, we have a lot of employees in India, and there was a -- just a couple of building access issues that happened to come up recently. They brought those to me, I brought that to the group, one of the C level executives knew the right people in India, and we got that sorted out. So that council, I would say, is a key group for coordinating stuff.
There's also a disability inclusion employee resource group as well. There's mentorship that we do that goes with that. And within the people team, HR, there's a whole group, and more in the DEI part of the company that focuses on disability as well. We have internship programs.
And I know less of the exact details sitting here about that. But there's a whole other part of the company that focuses on the employee experience.
So the reason why we've gotten that employee award image year over year -- for those who are familiar with that process.. I'm one of the people that helps fill out the survey that they have.
And it's so long, I want to say, with hundreds of questions.
And it covers all these different areas. So I feel lucky to say I think there's a lot there.
MORISSA FREGEAU: I was going to say that a lot of, you know, over the past 10 years, that it's been a huge change at United. I'm allowed to talk about it --
SUDHA RAJAN: You should, please. Yeah.
(Laughter)
MORISSA FREGEAU: But part of that was having the accessibility team. So Sudha was able to bring to her team people with disabilities, and I remember when Ryan first started and you told me you had to read to him all of the HIPAA training, like... so it was like... all those sort of crazy things that, like, no, this can't happen.. You can't have a supervisor read HIPAA training to someone. Like, that's... So but part of it was that, of like, building this accessibility team and saying, no, these employees need this.
So -- and it's getting there slower with Aflac.. Aflac is an extremely diverse company since the 1970s, but their idea of diversity is black and white, and so getting them to understand other areas of disability is a slower process.
But I'd say the reason that United did -- it was out of necessity. Because you didn't want to have your supervisor, who came to lead the accessibility program, like, having to read all of the training that employees had to do to them.
SUDHA RAJAN: What's the phrase. Necessity is the mother of invention. That's the phrase, right?
MORISSA FREGEAU: Yeah. And even things like, you know, individuals who have service animals, like, that was a big deal at United, when suddenly you had hired all these people on your accessibility team.
And there were all these questions about, you know, what are we going to do with the animals. And I remember -- I can't remember who it was -- somebody on your team, who had said, "I just thought I'd show up at the interview with the dog. I decided I wouldn't tell them in advance". There was somebody on your team, I can't remember who it was.
SUDHA RAJAN: I think that might have been before I was leading. I think it's JP. He has a service animal.
MORISSA FREGEAU: Yeah, it was JP who told me, yeah, I'm just gonna show up with my animal.
SUDHA RAJAN: Good for him.
MORISSA FREGEAU: But anyway, I wanted to say that, I think that's important for you all to know that we as corporations change out of necessity, and because people apply for jobs, like I did, and said "I'll give you a copy of my resume, but I can't upload it to your system. It doesn't work."
SUDHA RAJAN: I will add to that a little bit and say, as well -- and again, I feel like for people in the accessibility industry, I will say candidly, there often aren't enough people with disabilities in leadership roles. I think that's something that's a trend that I don't love. And again, as I said, I have invisible disabilities, but as probably a lot of can you tell now, most people who meet me don't know that.
It affects me and I've had to work harder because of it and those things, but I don't have to deal with the prejudice that people with visible disabilities are often dealing with.
And I've always felt strongly about how we've got to have leadership that's really inclusive and I've been very fortunate that Ryan, who is blind -- again, and part of just with the story that Morissa alluded to, part of what I think helped a lot is that Ryan and I worked together as peers at Target for four years before he came and worked with me as a direct report on my team. So I was able -- we had a really high level of trust.
And I think -- and we still do. And I think that that has really helped over the years, when we've run into these kinds of challenges around, you know, that's an early example. I'm glad I can say now we've had a long relationship with the training team, and a lot of that is accessible now. We continue to work on that. So it's come a long way since then.
But part of it is when you get someone with a more visible disability in a leadership role, it often does pressure-test stuff in a way that it hasn't been before, and you have to break all those barriers. One of the things that helped is that Ryan trusted me enough to say "hey, this isn't accessible"
And he and I have talked about this over the year, so I'm thinking about what he's said before when he was present for these things -- that he trusted me enough, that he knew that I valued him, and the fact that something was inaccessible I would never blame on him. I told him this explicitly a lot: You're valuable. I'm glad you're here. I don't care what it takes to make this work. We'll get it done.
And I think having that level of trust made it possible for us to partner together on breaking a lot of those barriers. I'm really grateful that he's been willing to do that. I mean, he's an extraordinary guy, and it's been great -- again, the company doesn't need to have these barriers. When you haven't done something before, you don't know what the issues are.
And I will give United credit, as Morissa is saying, that as we've gotten in there and seen the issues that the employees face, with Ryan being a director and stuff, the company has been good at fixing stuff. It's a lot that you have to get in and see what the issues are and work on fixing them.
But they've been willing to do it, which is good.
>> Can I ask, for United.. You have a big team, but the company is joint.
SUDHA RAJAN: Yup.
>> And it sounds like you're somewhat embedded in the procurement process, which is great. How do you stay involved in all of the aspects and make sure all parts of the company know your team and are involving you?
(Laughter)
SUDHA RAJAN: That is a constant -- I will just say, that is a constant challenge. Morissa and I both have challenges written down for our programs, and I would say the main one is the scale. It's just something where we're constantly pivoting, trying to know what the priorities are, constantly building awareness. A lot of it is you just never stop doing that, and find new teams and groups that don't know about you and get in there and deal with it.
A lot of that is just accepting that it's never done and you work towards it all the time. A lot of it too with me is working with business leaders across the company to learn what are the biggest priorities, what are the areas that have the highest traffic, and really understanding, where do we want to make sure we focus the most?
Another thing, too, one of our newest initiatives is Total Accessibility, after Total Football, with Ted Lasso --
(Laughter)
Because that's a really positive -- it's leaning more and more into teams and saying, this is your responsibility. What I've always said since I started at the company is the only way to make things work at this scale is you have is to change the way you work forever. That's just the truth. And Total Accessibility is a way of explaining that to people, to say, you're accountable for this.. We're here to help you.. We'll provide resources.
Trainings, tools, everything, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel, but you own this and you're accountable for this like you are with everything else. So it's about working with senior leaders to drive that accountability, because that's got to come from top down -- that's an area where I work -- and really equipping teams so they own this. What we see, fortunately, is more and more teams taking on this ownership. And helping them see, too, this is something they'll work on forever, progress over perfection, too.
MORISSA FREGEAU: I would say it's probably the challenge at any corporation. I think that, for example, in our accessibility council, we've, you know, gone back and forth with executive leadership leading it.
And it's more of a bottom-up organization as opposed to a top-down.. And once you get those executives -- and it took a long time at United as well to get executives on board, and I find that still at Aflac, it's like, "oh.
We did accessibility". Like, no, you didn't DO accessibility. It's not DONE. It's, you know, it's never one and done.
And that concept is really difficult for corporations, quite honestly. And especially insurance organizations who are used to, as I said in the beginning about laws, we're used to implementing laws and then you've implemented it, right. So this concept of it has to continuously involve, you have to continuously test and that's part of your governance.. It's not like, "oh, we did accessibility.. It's done". No, it's not.
And that's really -- that has been difficult at both organizations I've worked at.
But I think that, you know, we strive to get there and get people to understand that in terms of scope. Sure.
>> Yeah.. So I will say, at the National Disabled Legal Professionals Association, we work with a lot of companies and firms.. And there's a lot of struggle right now with the executive orders related to DEI. Has that been impacting y'all's work. How have your companies been responding to that, if at all?
MORISSA FREGEAU: So I can tell you at Aflac, our CEO is, if you ever go look up Dan Amos.. He is a very Southern gentleman who will basically tell you "I don't want people in my company to look like me".
And that's been his way since the early '70s. And he's like, that's not going to change. He said that at our State of the Company.
So I think that I'm lucky to work for a company that is very open in diversity. I think that, you know, obviously, I think there are impacts to everyone. I'm just lucky to be at an organization that's like, okay, you know, we're not changing our outlook on what we do. So...
SUDHA RAJAN: Yeah, I would say kind of a dual answer to that as well.
So for us, United Health Group has six core values and one of them is inclusion, and that has not changed. And also, we've worked for, you know, 50 years to create a workforce that really reflects the people that we serve. We serve a very large, very diverse group of people, and we want to continue to attract and retain the best talent to do that, right.
And we will continue to foster an inclusive environment where we appreciate our differences and treat people with mutual respect. Again, we cannot help people live healthier lives and make the system work better for everyone if we don't continue to honor our core values and have a workforce that can best serve the population, which is huge and diverse that we serve.
So that's the general answer there.
In terms of the accessibility answer, I have read some of those executive orders. I'll just leave it at that for now.
(Laughter)
Leave that there. I've read some of them.
And I will say -- and I alluded to this, I think, a little bit earlier -- there's about 25% of Americans, which, America is where we do most of our business, have disabilities. If we're going to serve that population effectively, which is a core business imperative for us, we have to do this.
At work -- fortunately, I haven't really had to say it, but what I always know because it's my job to talk about our business case, all the time, now, in the past, always, that's my job -- is that we need to get this right, because that's what people need from us. If we're going to be effective and serve people and serve our members and make the system work for them, 25% of people have disabilities, we have to do this.
I don't care what the law says. Period.
And I'm also lucky that the management above me, including the C level leader who I know really well, would say the exact same thing. She's always said, I want to be the market leader in this, it's a market differentiator, it's critical.
And like Morissa said, this is something our customers demand from us. This is a business need in that way as well. So it's not that the law doesn't matter. Of course it does.
But we also have all these other reasons where this is just a real baseline thing that we need to do and there's nothing about the politics that's going to change that.
MORISSA FREGEAU: So we have about 10 minutes left, and one of the things we wanted to do, especially since we're a small group, is for you all to be able to tell us --
SUDHA RAJAN: Actually, wait, Morissa. What time are we done?
MORISSA FREGEAU: 3:10.
SUDHA RAJAN: I thought it was 3:30.
I think 3:20.
(Laughter)
MORISSA FREGEAU: So we have 20 minutes left. Oh, it's 3:30
Okay, good. Never mind. We'll go back to what we skipped, then. How's that?
(Laughter)
SUDHA RAJAN: Do people have other questions. Have we answered the question?
>> So from what you're describing, and it's typical, I think, of most companies. A lot of things you're reactive -- oh, somebody's hit a barrier, we have an accessibility issue here. And when that happens, the one area that sort of jumps out at me is emergency planning and disaster resilience, because --
MORISSA FREGEAU: Yes.
>> You don't want to discover that you're not accessible in your warnings that there's a, you know, dangerous situation, or whatever.
Do you all address this. And if so, how?
SUDHA RAJAN: Accessibility for that system, you mean?
>> Yes, very much so.
MORISSA FREGEAU: How do people get out, there's disabilities, if there's a fire, or how did you deal with COVID, things like that?
>> How do they know there's a siren going off if they're deaf, or that a light is flashing if they're blind. You know, what kind of plans are made in the emergency planning to address disability?
SUDHA RAJAN: So again, so, part of the answer there, unfortunately, is that again my team's scope doesn't cover most of that. So I'm not the person who's familiar with it. That being said, I do know that we take -- and I'm required to take this as a leader of the company -- just one example, like, workplace violence trainings, and other stuff like that, that gets at evacuation plans. That's something where they do equip us to support people. I've actually done drills, where my team, including people with disabilities, have gotten out the right way in the drill.
So I have done that personally, anecdotally. I can't speak to the company's brick and mortar effort around that because it's out of my scope.
From a digital accessibility perspective, I am generally familiar with the notifications system that we have, and the emails that come out and the text messages that come out are super straightforward and accessible. And again, I, fortunately for me, since I have several people with disabilities on my team, I always kind of know whether we've formally tested something or not, if it works for people.
And we do know that at least the digital aspect of that system has worked fine with my team. When we've tested it, I can't think of when we've ever deployed it for non test reasons.
>> I'm curious -- I'm usually in the posture of talking to opposing counsel to work on agreements to make things more accessible. One of the parallels we often draw to help people understand why accessibility should be embedded and why it's not a one and done thing but an ongoing effort, and some people in the room have introduced my to this concept, is treat it like security.
MORISSA FREGEAU: We talk about it all the time. Treat it like security.
>> I wondered if that was effective for people in the trenches.
SUDHA RAJAN: All the time. Yeah, and we actually work with security on things sometimes too.
So like security, we say that all the time. Also, I'm constantly telling people "This is never over. We're doing it all the time."
The way we can balance that is we can hit milestones and celebrate the milestones, but I always tell people, if you have digital anything and you have accessibility, there is no "done".
>> Have you actually coordinated to get the policies parallel in some way, or procedures?
SUDHA RAJAN: Yes, we have.
MORISSA FREGEAU: Ours is separate. We have talked a lot with security, but it is a separate policy from our digital -- other digital policy.
SUDHA RAJAN: I should clarify that too, ours are separate. We have separate accessibility policies and procedures, but we have talked with the security group and with the overall compliance group to get a sense of what does all of that stuff look like, to make sure that what we're doing is consistent with company practice.
MORISSA FREGEAU: And we'll get to you in a second I won't forget you! But one of the things that has happened for me at both companies is, especially in the law department, is, like, you can't change that page. We filed it!
Like, I'm not changing your page. I'm making it accessible!
And that's been like an education piece, it is to get people to understand, like, you know, we're a highly regulated industry. And we have to file certain pages for your website, and, like, it's not changing because we, you know, made it accessible.
And sometimes states are not great about that, quite honestly, about things like application forms. So we do a lot of individual insurance, and so having an accessible application form, like, you have to file those forms in -- and they have to look exactly like the written version.
So -- and then you have to have a, after somebody signs the form, it has to -- there has to be a rendering of the form, and it's supposed to look like the written form. And as you know, that's really difficult in the PDF world, to make that rendered form accessible. So we get around it by making a page that's accessible that has all the information that's on the form, and then you get the inaccessible one that you put together so you can print it. Because that's what the state wants.
So I sort of went over and above what you're asking.
But that happens a lot, when you get, especially lawyers, who are like -- or compliance people, who are like "No, it filed.. And when we filed, we said it would be the exact same thing from, you know, digitally, that it is on paper". And, so you have to get over that argument about your regulators.
She had a question.
>> Hi, I'm Char Perensley, they/them.
Did any of you ever struggle explaining why the higher standards were necessary?
Did it produce backlash from professionals higher up in the company when you did propose such things?
MORISSA FREGEAU: In like the higher WCAG standards or the higher color contrast? You mean in general?
>> In general. Both.
SUDHA RAJAN: So is the essence of the question kind of, do we experience backlash from leadership, kind of advocating for accessibility?
>> Yes.
>> Above the legal minimum.
MORISSA FREGEAU: Um, so, I think, like, at least for Aflac, you know, some of the things, like color contrast, it was just sort of obvious that lots of people have color contrast issues. So that was not -- I think as we put it in sort of our style guide, people didn't notice we did it. They were just like, oh, that's the style guide, it's fine. So we did not get backlash on that.
I think what we do get is the "accessibility is like security" backlash. That backlash sort of happens. But the "over and above the law" -- I mean, United, and what Sudha has done is far ahead of us.
But -- because I think color contrast is probably the only place we've gone over and above the law. But I don't know if you have --
SUDHA RAJAN: Yeah, I can speak to that a bit. So I would say, I think the way I think of it is, I'm fortunate to say, I have not experienced backlash as in -- I have never gotten in trouble, been penalized, anything like that.
And I would say y'all have gotten a sense of me in the past however much time it's been.
(Laughter)
I'm really outspoken, right. And really direct and all those things. And I'm intense about this stuff, because I really care about it.
And that's always who I've been at the company, and I'll say I've been that person since 2018 and I have been promoted. So in that sense they've rewarded me for being a strong advocate. I've gotten high performance scores, and often what is highlighted is I'm passionate and a strong advocate. So I've taken that stance, and I'm grateful I can say that, and it speaks well of the company.
With that, I'll say it's a huge company with constantly changing business needs. So when we do go above and beyond on something, or advocate for something, there will be plenty of times when someone will come back and say, hey, I have this business issue, this issue with this design, whatever.
And so we constantly have discussions about that kind of thing, about does it make sense to apply that standard in this context. How do we negotiate that, when am I going to get something done?
I always think that accessibility is something that's about the long term. Like you said, it's not a project. It's forever. And when it's forever, long-term, you think about relationships. So for me, I balance being passionate and an advocate with meeting with people realistically and say, how do we achieve this goal and make it be forever. And sometimes I have to be really hardcore about some short-term things.
Sometimes I do.
But I always try to prioritize, whenever I can, building long-term relationships, long-term process, and permanent processes and changes, because that's going to get us the farthest the longest.
If you don't prioritize relationships and alienate people too much, that often doesn't serve those goals in the long term.
>> I have a very specific, very detailed question. I'm a little curious about how you deal with the commuting issues of some employees with disabilities. You know, I'm from China.
And I'm blind.. And before coming here, I worked in an NGO focusing on disability related issues in Beijing, in China. And my supervisor always told me that my work time could be flexible.
And, you know, Beijing is a very big city, and there are always traffic times and transportation is always crowded. And sometimes, for example, when there was bad weather, like the snowstorm, my supervisor would tell me that if I was late, that that would be okay, or if I wanted to work from home, that was also fine.
And when I come here, I found, as far as I know, the public transportation is even less developed in some places. So I'm curious about if some employees with disabilities will spend more time on their commuting, is it okay. Or do you have very strict punctual time, or is it also flexible?
SUDHA RAJAN: You want to take that one?
MORISSA FREGEAU: Sure.. I can tell you, part of the reason I left United is because I didn't drive at night.
And we had moved, and it was COVID, and they wanted me to go back in the office. And every time I went back pre-COVID into the office, I got sick.
And I already had a telecommuter contract, so, like, I didn't know why you wanted me to come two days a week into an office. But I think that I did take the bus when I lived closer, and so -- but it's an issue. I think that our corporate headquarters are in Columbus, Georgia, which doesn't have a lot of -- it has some public transportation, not a lot of public transportation.
And it is an issue, I think, in America in particular. For me, in my position, I was like, I'm not moving to Georgia. And if you tell me I have to go into an office, I'm going to retire.
So I've been lucky enough to be able to be a telecommuter full-time. I do a lot of traveling, and that has worked out for me. I also, with a lot of surgery and drugs in my eyes, have been able to drive after a decade of not driving at night. So I'm a little tiny bit better. But only in places I know!
Anyways.
But anyways, my -- I think it is still an issue, even at my company. I think that there are a lot of folks who have been asked to come back into the office post-COVID. So I'm in a higher-up position, and sometimes those higher-up positions get a lot more leeway than folks like in the call center, who have no leeway, they have to come in to the office at Aflac. So there is that disparate situation. Just to be very honest. That does happen.
We do have an accommodation group that works through some of those things, and we do it as a business, and leave is an accommodation under the ADA. There are folks who either go on leave or they use work at home as an accommodation, and that does happen in both our business for other companies and within our company.
But it is not -- it is still someplace that needs to get better.
SUDHA RAJAN: So I would say for me, again, I have a team of 50 people, it's a global team. So there are so many ways to answer the question. I think I'll just share my kind of personal philosophy and how my team works.
Again, United Health Group is a huge company and there are very different business needs for different business units depending on what they're doing. So what I'm about to share is specific to my team and my team's business function.
So for the most part, my team, we are almost 100% remote team, and I've always felt very strongly that work from home should always be available unless there's a really compelling business need for people to be in the office. I will say personally, and I've said this at my job, your ego as a leader is not a business need for people to be in the office, it is my personal opinion about that!
So sometimes there are people, I think, that need to hear that.
But I always think, unless there's a true business need for people to be in the office, then people don't need to be in the office. My team does not need to be in the office to deliver excellent results. We have proven that.. Most of my team is remote.
We have some people who are based in India, and there's requirements in the UHG's India group to have people go to the office. I'll be honest and say I've been very outspoken about not requiring that because I don't see the business value, and my attitude is if we're going to make people spend the time commuting, there better be a business value, and I'm not getting that business value.
But we do have people on the India team who are blind, and commuting for them would be dangerous and/or impossible, so we were able to get exceptions for them so they can work remotely. From what I've seen, my team delivers excellent results never going into an office. I don't see why they would need to. I also have been really open with the team and said, you know, all of you are adults. We've got results we need to deliver. We measure whether we're delivering those results and on time, etc.. And, you know, I have to follow company policy, we always do.
But when you work it is your business. You're an adult. Manage your life.
And if I can't measure that, that's my fault, not yours. So I try to have as much flexibility in all respects for my team that I can.
And I've also seen that leads to much better employee engagement, lower turnover. When people feel like you respect them and trust their judgment, I feel like that helps people be engaged. It also makes them more effective. We also have a lot of working parents on the team who have expressed that they get a lot of benefit from being able to balance everything that they're doing. As long as stuff is done well and done on time and we're following corporate policy... that's all that I focus on.
>> Can I follow up on that?
SUDHA RAJAN: Uh-huh.
>> Are either of you actually advocating outside of your own circumstances for remote work. That's my first part of the question.
Second part of the question is, in terms of the interactive process in your HR departments, are you seeing a bias against remote work or a bias against believing people when they say that they have disabilities that require remote work?
SUDHA RAJAN: No, so UHG actually was like a third remote before the pandemic ever started. So it has a culture that allows for remote work. It always has. The CEO of the company, Andrew Witty, is very supportive of remote work. So I would say it's got a strong culture around that.
>> And are you advocating outside of your group?
SUDHA RAJAN: I would say more that I don't need to, because the company does it already, so I don't need to do it. Company policy before the pandemic and now it is to have a lot of remote workers. That's just part of the company. The CEO advocates for that. So in that sense, I don't see a need for me to do it.
MORISSA FREGEAU: And by the way, the law department that I was in at UHC, those folks don't exist anymore at that company.
(Laughter)
So all the people who objected to being 100% remote. So that changed after I left.
At Aflac, I do talk about remote work a lot. But there has been a real push. It is a family company.
And they, you know, our CEO likes to do his Southern charm and go visit people at their desk. And so he... he hates virtual meetings. So it has been a push to get people back into the office.
I will say, though, the culture changed after COVID. There are more people who work remotely, and there are more people who, even if they live close to an office, that they don't have to come in every day of the week. They can do a hybrid, and that was never the way at Aflac, and it is -- hybrid work is probably 95% of the workforce now.
But there is a push for people to go into the office.
>> Okay, so I have a question.
So this happened recently. I was talking to a woman who works for a big insurance company, not one of yours, and she was what they called a NOST auditor.
So she experienced blindness.
She became blind and had to learn how to live her life being blind. She got connected with the vocational rehabilitation agency, and they said, okay, we can provide training on screen readers and all of that.
And she got the training.
But then when she went back to work, she needed to know how the screen reading would go with her company's program. You know?
Well, her company would not allow the trainer from vocational rehab to come in and train her, because of all the confidential information.
And so we said, oh, the company can sign a release.
She wouldn't share anything.. Blah blah blah. The company wouldn't have it. Then we said to the company, do you have somebody that can train her on the screen reading and how it interfaces with the company's software?
So I'm just wondering -- and that ended up getting resolved a different way. But I'm just wondering what you guys in your company would have done if that had happened.
MORISSA FREGEAU: So I've done this a lot. You know, there is a provision in HIPAA that -- for interpreters. So I would look at that as, is the trainer an interpreter.
And that's -- I had to do this at United and I've had to do it at Aflac. Because it used to be that if you called, for example, if you had a speech impairment or a hearing impairment and you called your insurance company, to use your interpreter.. They had to have some sort of HIPAA release. It was like, that's dumb, and there's a rule in HIPAA that says, "an interpreter is not a business associate". So that's how I would have argued it.
But I think that part of it is on the human side -- and I'm sure you did this -- is, it's really hard for corporations to understand, like, outside of legal, I think that especially in compliance, insurance companies like black and white. And they don't like the gray.
And they really need, like, I think that's where Sudha and I have, like, thrived working on the inside.
(Laughter)
It is that we need to show people the gray. And, okay.. Well, let's say this person is not just a trainer, but they're an interpreter.. And you're allowed, under HIPAA, to have an interpreter. So they can come in.
But I think that that's the way I -- that's just my personal opinion on the way I would have looked at that.
But it's hard to get corporations to get the gray.
SUDHA RAJAN: Uh-huh.
I'd say, Morissa's answer is excellent. She has more expertise on this question than I do. I think if this question came up for me, again, we have a big company, so different groups do different things. We have a reasonable accommodations team that would probably be involved in answering that question. We also have a bunch of different lawyers looking at the legal dimension. So that's something where, if that came up for me, I feel like my role would be to make sure that I engaged all the right teams to look at the question and that we really ran down the right answer.
And I would definitely advocate for getting that all done as much as possible, but ultimately, that exact question would be up to some of those other partners and not up to me.
But I could make sure that that question got in front of them and that it got the right resolution, and if it didn't, then I could help try to drive that.
MORISSA FREGEAU: You had a question?
>> All right.. So when you were just starting out at, like, your companies, did you have a hard time getting the organization to give you the accommodations you requested?
SUDHA RAJAN: I did not personally -- I'll answer first if that's cool. Since I started already!
(Laughter)
I have not -- I have never formally requested any accommodations in a job during my career. I have kind of informally needed them, though, and I will say -- and so, again, like the medical conditions that I -- the main one that I have -- I get infusion medication -- I'm immune compromised a little bit due to medication that I take.
And I get infusions every six months.
And then I can get tired at times -- I feel like we all can, right.
But I feel very fortunate that I have not needed to request any formal accommodations. The managers that I've had at Target and United Health Group have all been completely fine with me getting infusions, getting a little brain foggy after I get them, taking the time I need to recover, having me work in a more flexible way as long as I need business requirements. So I would say I have been lucky that the managers that I have had have given me what I've needed and I have ever needed to formally request accommodations.
MORISSA FREGEAU: I can tell you that I'm an old Jewish woman who doesn't ask for anything!
(Laughter)
SUDHA RAJAN: So "haven't needed to ask" and "won't ask". That's what we're saying.
(Laughter)
MORISSA FREGEAU: I will say, though, height of when my vision was the worst, when I was in law school, I worked for GE.. And my boss at the time asked me what I needed, and then provided it.
So I didn't ask. He asked me.
And I guess it was kind of obvious I needed some help.
But, anyways, I have not been lucky enough to -- I think with my work in accessibility.. I've realized what is available to me, but didn't always know. So I haven't had that.
I have had, though, the whole issue of being able to work at home, like, I do advocate for myself now. But I'm fortunately in a position where I can do that now, and they know that I'm going to retire if they ever tell me to go into an office, especially in Georgia. Sorry for anybody who lives in Georgia.
(Laughter)
>> I do!
MORISSA FREGEAU: Sorry!
(Laughter)
SUDHA RAJAN: On another positive note.
Again, in my own journey of figuring out how much I talk about the medical condition that I have, so I keep more of that confidential. But at work, I keep more of that confidential.
And I did my first manager that I had at United Health Care, and was also my manager for the part of the time at Optum.. I worked under him for three years.
And I told him at some point the medical condition that I had.
And it sounds pretty serious.
And he reacted pretty well and didn't change how he treated me at all.. And after that, he pushed hard to get me the promotion to be in the role I am now. To be clear, whether or not to disclose disabilities at work can be an incredibly complicated and personal decision. It can go a lot of different ways. I'm not advising anyone on what they should do. There's so much complexity to that question. I'm sharing that because I feel like there are so many negative stories out there that we hear about discrimination and unfair treatment.
I've heard plenty of them. So I wanted to share a positive example that I've experienced, because we do know that positive examples exist. We just don't hear about them as often. When I disclosed my disability to my boss, he did push hard for my promotion and didn't change anything. I'm always grateful for that. I'm not saying that's the norm, per se, but it did happen to me.
MORISSA FREGEAU: So now we're really at the close.
SUDHA RAJAN: We are.
MORISSA FREGEAU: I will tell you, and you can tell us this afterwards, we've gotten a lot, one of the things that we wanted to hear from you is what you want to see from corporations. And I think some of it, you've told us.
But if you want to take us aside and say, "this is what we think you should do".
SUDHA RAJAN: Or just share now in the remaining couple minutes.
>> I can -- are we going to go around the table?
MORISSA FREGEAU: Ooh, okay.
>> Because I know what I want to say.
MORISSA FREGEAU: Okay, go ahead.
>> I want to see companies advocating for us and being courageous and being out there, and speaking out loud about this. We need leaders in the world right now that are willing to stand up to this and lead in this area. And corporations are in a unique place in this society, it's a capitalist society, they have a lot of pull, and I want to see that kind of behavior from them.
MORISSA FREGEAU: Hm. Me too. You wanted to go first.
>> Yeah, this is Marissa. I just, I think piggybacking off of that a little bit.. Obviously, the federal government's in shambles a little bit, nonprofits are --
MORISSA FREGEAU: A little bit?
(Laughter)
>> Nonprofits, especially those that get federal funding, are having a lot of issues.
And so having companies be able to fill that role is going to be really critical in this time, and also making sure disabled people are in the room making decisions, that's what I really want to see.
>> I really wish that more corporations had company cultures that were as open to people with disabilities and to provide reasonable accommodations upon request as the corporations you have worked for. I believe in a world where more corporations were open to people with disabilities and hiring disabled people, there would be a lot less stress and anxiety about disabled people in the workforce.
>> I'd like to build on that. Training, not just in HR, but training that will result in it being safe if you have an invisible disability, to come out. It can't always be dependent on whether you've got a good boss or a bad boss.
MORISSA FREGEAU: Yes.
>> You've got to create a culture where it's safe to come out, and that level of training across the company is still a mirage, I think, in most places.
SUDHA RAJAN: That's actually the issue that's come up the most in the disability council that I'm on. What I've advocated for is until you have people at these really senior leadership levels who are out, comfortable saying it, you can't ask anyone at a lower level to do anything.
And I take that stance really strongly. I agree with you that that's a huge issue.
>> Well, piggybacking off of that, are either of your corporations unionized?
MORISSA FREGEAU: No.
>> Oh, yeah.
SUDHA RAJAN: That is a complex question. Maybe parts of it. Just because UHG is so huge and the different professionals --
MORISSA FREGEAU: No.
SUDHA RAJAN: What about the nurses and stuff. I'm going with I don't think so.
>> I would imagine building the worker power within the company would help steer the company into the direction that would best help people with disabilities or people in general.
>> I have a request, which is, at least in the legal space.. We often, when we are hearing from companies, we're hearing from like the Chamber of Commerce saying accessibility is too hard.. Nobody can be this perfect. It would be really nice to have corporate voices weighing in, whether through amicus briefs or otherwise, saying, no.. We're doing this work.
It's possible.. And there's a business case for it.
MORISSA FREGEAU: That's a good one. Write that down, please.
(Laughter)
SUDHA RAJAN: I was listening too hard.
MORISSA FREGEAU: Amicus briefs.
>> I'll piggyback on that and say, hold those chambers accountable. You know, I think there were companies who would say publicly they're in favor of inclusion and access.
And then would take an absolutely opposite position, being shielded through the kind of aggregated viewpoint of the chamber representative in opposing, you know, a digital access bill.
So making sure that your representatives, even in the legislative, are not advancing positions legislatively, you know that they are inconsistent with the values of the individual companies.
And I'm sure it's hard, right, because there's -- the chamber is going to represent multiple members' interests.
But I imagine, you know, there's some sway that you all have behind the curtains there.
MORISSA FREGEAU: That's a good one.
>> Thank you both for what you do!
>> Thank you, this was great.
(Applause)
SUDHA RAJAN: Well, I'm applauding for all of you guys too, because it takes all of us doing it.
MORISSA FREGEAU: Thank you, all of you. Yeah.
Well, thank you!