Announcer:
Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast, presented by the National Federation of the Blind, the transformative membership and advocacy organization of blind Americans. Live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Hello and welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast. I am Melissa Riccobono, and I am so excited to have not just one, but two of my favorite people with me on the podcast today. The first favorite person is Anil Lewis. How are you, Anil?
Anil Lewis:
Oh, I'm so glad to be one of your favorite people, Melissa. This is Anil. Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast. Listeners, we have a really interesting episode for you today, and you're right. The other guest that we have on the show is one of my favorite people as well.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh, well, that's good. The admiration is mutual. So who gets to introduce him? I want to do it. I want to do it. Do you want to do it? Do you want to do it?
Anil Lewis:
You should do it.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh, okay. All right. Excellent. So this man has worn many, many hats over the many, many years (Melissa and Anil laugh). And I'm laughing because...
Anil Lewis:
Decades. Decades.
Melissa Riccobono:
Decades (Melissa and Anil laugh). Because he might not want us to say how long he's been involved, but it has been a long time. And I think that's an important part of his story. And he's going to tell us about some stories. Anyway, I'm getting way ahead of myself.
Anil Lewis:
Stories! I'm hearing a reoccurring theme here. Stories. What story is it?
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, lots of stories. So this person has worked in computers. He's been ... Well, he'll have to tell me exactly what he did in computers. I think he was a programmer though back in the day. And then for a while, he was the president of the Missouri affiliate. And for a while, he was on the national board. And for a while, he was editor of our Braille Monitor. And now he has a job that if he ever leaves it, I'll be sad because I don't think it'll be quite the same, but I'm also a little bit jealous because this is a job I am definitely also interested in. I am talking, of course, if you don't already know, about the most genuine person I know, I believe, Gary Wunder. How are you, Gary?
Anil Lewis:
Gary Wunder.
Gary Wunder:
Well, my head is very inflated at the moment (Melissa laughs).
Anil Lewis:
Isn't it always?
Melissa Riccobono:
No! No it's not (Melissa and Gary laugh).
Gary Wunder:
No, that was a good one. People are always saying, "I'm looking for words from people that will ground me, and I just feel I have been grounded." I'm
Anil Lewis:
Here for you. I'm here for you, brother. You know that. You can always count on me. Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, absolutely.
Anil Lewis:
Tell us about this new role you have that Melissa's so envious of, Gary.
Gary Wunder:
Well, it's called Blindness Narrative Curator. And what it means is that I get the pleasure of going through with President Riccibono and other folks to try to figure out who has made significant contributions in the blindness movement, and then calling them up and scheduling an interview with them. And the wonderful thing is that they are so very flattered to receive a call asking to be interviewed. And they say sometimes, "Are you sure?"
Well, of course, I'm sure. And then we work out a time and we set down a story that would never come to their attention as being something that they should write. Most of us do not create autobiographies of ourselves, and most of us, frankly, are not asked by biographers to come get one. So when we call and we say, "We want your story," they're flattered, and we get their voice, their emphasis, speaking of what the times were like that they lived through, the things that they're proud of, the things they might have done differently.
And one of the things I like is, what are the challenges you see ahead for our movement and what do you think we can do to meet those challenges? And then after all of that,
You ask them, "What question did I miss asking that would have captured the real you? " And I got to tell you, it's a fun job.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow.
Anil Lewis:
Can you share with us one of the best stories you've heard so far here?
Gary Wunder:
Well, I think one of the people that I enjoyed interviewing most is a mild mannered Minnesotan. Don't you love that alliteration?
Melissa Riccobono:
I love the mild mannered Minnesotan. It sounds like an old time radio something. There should be a show built around
Anil Lewis:
It or something. Yeah. Yeah. It
Gary Wunder:
Should have been a Garrison Keeler
Melissa Riccobono:
Skill. Yes. A mild mannered Minnesotan from Nick will be gone.
Gary Wunder:
The fellow is named Steve Jacobson.
He has for a long time being on the cutting edge of technology. He was a computer programmer and like me, he found that the hardest part of our job had little to do with the actual programming we were asked to do, but the way that we needed to interface with the computer. So he tells the story of how it was to take a bunch of IBM cards and try not to get them out of order and type them without being able to see them and feed them in and get them back from a printer that sliced and diced them and told you everything you did wrong or the answer that you wanted.
And you had to figure out how to read that print. Anyway, how it was great when that moved along and the technology got to where we could print Braille or embossed Braille, how it came along that it would talk, the scare we had going through windows and all of that.
Anyway, what I love about Steve is that he's a father. He had great history with the airlines. This mild mannered man was told that he had to move from an exit row seat to which he had been assigned and he did not, and his wife did not, and they were carted off to jail.
Anil Lewis:
This
Gary Wunder:
Was not his idea of how a Minnesotan should be treated, but he wasn't going to sell out. I like Steve because any of you who are active on our list serves know that he answers question after question after question, and often they are recurring questions. And for me, he continues to recruit. He continues to believe deeply in what we do. He's just solid. And that kind of thing I find inspirational.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, I agree. I agree. How about you, Melissa? You have a story to share with our listeners?
Melissa Riccobono:
Gosh, I mean, to me, when I saw this question on our outline, spoiler alert, we do have an outline for the Nation's Blind Podcast. It's not all
Anil Lewis:
Just under that. Whether we follow it or not, is this-
Melissa Riccobono:
Much of it. Well, yes. And much of it is just out of our heads. We do have an outline at least to get us started. And I thought, what a privilege it is to be involved in this movement because this movement is built on stories because it's a movement built on people and every person has a story. And so I think that one of my favorite things that I've heard about national convention was there were some parents, I can't remember now where they were from.
I feel like it was a Southern state, but I actually do not remember anymore, but they were at convention for the first time with their small child, either an infant or a young toddler. I can't exactly remember the age of the child, but the mom said they got in an elevator and an elevator is at convention. Everybody knows it's, "Hi, who are you?
Where are you from? Oh, so nice to meet you. " So this was happening and she said, "Yes, I'm so- and-so and I'm here with my husband and we have our child with us." And the person said, "Is your child blind?" And the mom said, "Yes, he is. " And the person that was introducing themselves to this couple said, "Oh, that's wonderful." And she said, "That is the first time
That anybody ever said, Oh, that's great. And I don't think, to be clear, I don't think the person meant, oh, it's so great that your child is blind necessarily, but they did mean, oh, I'm so glad your child is so young and you're here and you found us and we love your child because they're one of ours. I love that.
Anil Lewis:
But the
Melissa Riccobono:
Mom said that was so impactful for her because she said every other time she's ever had to say, yes, my child is blind, she gets the
Anil Lewis:
Hug. Oh, I'm so sorry.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh, I'm so sorry.
Anil Lewis:
Oh,
Melissa Riccobono:
That's so difficult. Oh, how are you holding up? And she said that was the first time that somebody reacted so positively and that's
Anil Lewis:
How she
Melissa Riccobono:
Knew she was in the right place.
Anil Lewis:
That's nice.
Melissa Riccobono:
How about you and Neil?
Anil Lewis:
See, now that you told that story, other things kind of pop, but I'm going to stick with my original one when I heard that Gary was going to be on and this is what we're talking about. One of my favorite stories is one that Gary relayed to me years ago, we hosted the meeting of the World Blind Union. And this is blind people from all around the world.
And part of our strategy in handling logistics around conferences, if you've ever attended to NWE conferences, we have marshals, we have individuals standing at doors, basically talking silence. So one of the things that the World Blind Union does is it has an overabundance of volunteers because unlike the Federation, our philosophy is not necessarily shared internationally. Our strive for independence and our desire to be fully participating members and not just beneficiaries is not as pervasive as we would like it to be.
But Gary was explaining to me that the World Biden Union, whoever hosts, handles the volunteer recruitment and we recruited volunteers and some of the volunteers are our guys, our blind guys. So it was very foreign for these international visitors to see a blind person exercising that degree of independence.
But the story is there was a blind individual, I forget from which country, who was asking for a volunteer to help them get to a place and they called the volunteer and the volunteer that showed up was Gary Wonder. And so the gentleman took his arm and they started walking and they got a few steps down the way. And the gentleman said, "I hear another cane." And Gary says, "Yes, that's my cane." And the gentleman stopped in his tracks. He's like, "But you're blind. How can you help me? You're blind." So Gary, being Gary, took the time to patiently understand the independent travel skills and all of that.
And pointed out the marshals to the gentleman's attention. And then they started walking again, a little slower this time, but the gentleman was trusting and learning. And at one point, Gary said, the gentleman said, "Well, now let me try it on my own." I was like, "Wow, I love that. " And that short period of time, such a significant paradigm shift about his own capacity took place just through that experience.
And before it was all over, we had blind individuals stepping in, serving as marshals, and they were doing it in their native language. So we had automatic translation. I just love when our philosophy is so contagious to that degree that it creates such a significant organic shift in the thought of people around not only the capacity of blind people, but in this particular case, their own belief in themselves. So that's one of my favorite stories.
Gary Wunder:
That's great. You triggered something in me. I thought you were going to tell it. During that same convention, when we took up our spots as talking signs the first day, we would say, "General session this way, general session, right this way." And people would comment, "Loud Americans, mouthy Americans. Why are they yelling? What is all of this
Anil Lewis:
Foolishness?"
Gary Wunder:
And this was, I think, on a Monday. And by Wednesday or Thursday, we would start our sign and we got criticism again, but this time it was, "You're only doing this in English. May I join you and do it in German? May I join you and do it in French? I love it. May I join you and do it in Spanish?" And so nobody was criticizing the loudmouthed Americans, but they joined in and we were a multi-lingual sign group.
Anil Lewis:
I love it.
Melissa Riccobono:
Nice and loud. Loud and proud.
Gary Wunder:
Exactly.
Melissa Riccobono:
Loud and proud.
Anil Lewis:
Well, if our listeners have any stories that they want to share, please call us and let us hear your stories.
Melissa Riccobono:
Or email us at [email protected]. We would love to hear your stories either in the audio from your phone call or your email. Of course, that means you have to write them down. Or I guess you could email an audio file. That would be fine too. But either way, please get them to us. And speaking of email, let's pause for this message. If you're like most people, you know your email inbox is out of control. Hundreds of messages, maybe thousands.
And every time you deal with it, you're either fighting with a screen reader or handing your phone to someone else just to find one email. Lumen is built differently. It's a voice first personal AI. No screen, no swipes, no scrolling. You just talk. Ask what's in your inbox. Tell it to reply. Ask what needs your attention today. Lumen handles everything in natural conversation, the way you already navigate the world.
It was built from scratch for people that work and live without a screen. Not adapted, not retrofitted, built that way from day one. Lumen is an early access now. If you want to try it, they'll do a free one-on-one onboarding call to get you set up. Just go to lumen.email. That's L-U-M-I-N dot E-M-A-I-L. Now it's story time on The Nation's Blind Podcast.
We are about to explore an oral history from another one of my favorite people, actually. Gary, I said you are the most genuine. I don't know. This other one, he's a pretty genuine guy as well. So maybe you guys have to fight over who is the most genuine member of the Federation. But we are going to hear some clips and comment about a oral history you did with Adelmo Vigil, who used to be our president of the New Mexico affiliate.
Anil Lewis:
Great guy.
Melissa Riccobono:
And his wife, Soladad, is a lovely, lovely human as well. And you always know Soledad is around because she always says, "May I take your picture? May I take your picture?" So they are a wonderful couple.
Anil Lewis:
They both have such a gentle spirit. Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
They do.
Anil Lewis:
So Gary, do you want to give us a little bit of an overview before we dig down deep into this oral history? What do you try to accomplish when you go into this particular discussion? I
Gary Wunder:
Try to get at the heart of the human being. And of course, we have to do that hoping that there's a good enough connection between the heart and the head that he is articulate. So it's one thing to be humble. It's another thing to be so humble that you won't speak up for yourself. Anil, I think that you would agree that Adelmo is just over that level. He is a humble human being,
Anil Lewis:
But he
Gary Wunder:
Does know the value of speaking and he does know the value of telling his story. And it's a beautiful story. And when you hear everything that Adelmo has to say, even in the adversity you hear, and I was blessed. And I think that very often we take good things for granted as just what we deserve and bad things as unique or against us in a way that they shouldn't be. But life is mostly uphill. And I think Adelmo understands that and is grateful for the opportunity to walk that hill. Yeah.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah. And it's a great interview. And unfortunately, we can't play the whole thing for the podcast, but let's listen to a clip and have a little discussion about it.
Adelmo Vigil:
At the age of 13, my parents agreed and felt that it would be good for me to attend the School for the Blind in Alamogordo. And they sent me there and the staff there kept saying, "Well, you have some sight. You should continue reading the print." And I kept saying to them, "The print, even the large print, I'm having difficulty doing that. "
And they would say, "Well, keep working at it. You'll do okay." Well, I wasn't okay with it. My teachers, even at the School for the Blind were not very sensitive to the fact that my vision was getting worse. I mean, I guess they wanted me to continue seeing. And I remember having to have a class in English and every weekend we were supposed to write an essay and I would type out my essay, we would type them, and I would memorize as I was typing because on Monday I knew we were going to have to read our essays.
So pretty much I would recite my essay the way I had typed it. And the teacher never said to me, I tell them, "Are you reading it or what? " I don't know if I left parts out or maybe added parts to it. I don't remember that, but it worked for me for a while. But when I was about probably 15, after two years of struggling, I finally went to the eye doctor there again after quite a few visits.
But this time the doctor told me, she said, "Delma, you're going to have to learn to read Braille. Your site is really bad." And I remember telling her at that point saying, "Well, I think that's the best thing that can happen to me because I'll learn to read." On the way home back to the school, the school nurse told me, she goes, "Well, Delma, she goes, I have some bad news to share with you.
" And I said, "Well, what's that? " And she said, "Well, you're going to have to learn Braille." And I said to her, "That is the best news I've heard yet. I might be able to learn to read."
Anil Lewis:
Nice.
Adelmo Vigil:
And so that's when technically I started learning Braille and I started learning to read probably about the age of 16, somewhere around there.
Gary Wunder:
It's interesting that the doctor had a more positive view of Braille than the school nurse,
Adelmo Vigil:
If I'm reading
Gary Wunder:
You right.
Adelmo Vigil:
Right. That was basically it. The doctor told me that I was going to have to learn Braille because I would not be able to read my print any longer, which I told her that I wasn't reading it anymore. But the teacher, I mean, the nurse, the school nurse, I mean, to me, as I thought about it later on in life, and I used this in my presentations for when I was a national rep, is here's a professional working at a school for the blind, telling me that that was bad news to learn Braille.
Anil Lewis:
Wow. And that's still real today and it's so unfortunate.
Melissa Riccobono:
In fact, it's so real that just recently I was starting to advocate for an IEP for a young girl and her grandmother wants her to learn Braille, thinks it's going to be just like Adelmo said, the best thing for her. And of course, I agreed. And my first question was, because her grandma said, "We just went to the eye doctor. We didn't realize what her vision, her acuity has gone way down. We didn't realize." And I said, "Did the doctor say she should learn Braille?"
And she said, "Yes." And I said, "Get that in writing because unfortunately sometimes that's what it takes for a school to really pay attention is for an actual medical professional to say, this is what this child needs. It's not fair. That shouldn't be how it is, but I mean, my gosh, I don't know how many years ago that was for Adelmo, but we're still in this spot." Now, this was a public school.
I think it's even more interesting, sadder that it was actually a school for the blind and they were saying, "No, no, no, we're not going to teach you that braille. You're going to do fine." I mean, you have a kid saying, "I want to learn." And they're saying, "Oh no, no, that's all right.You're going to be okay." And oh, I don't know.
Anil Lewis:
And how cool was it for him to be so self-aware that when he finally got the opportunity to learn Braille, that's the best thing that could happen. I love that.
Melissa Riccobono:
Do you have other thoughts, Gary, about this clip before we move on?
Gary Wunder:
Well, we sometimes talk about the hierarchy of sight and it is amazing that the hierarchy of sight has such a dominant place in Schools for the Blind and rehabilitation agencies. These people should have been sold on Braille at the School for the Blind, but they weren't. The other thing that amazes me about this is this happened to Adelmo, I think when he said he was 15 years old maybe. And for a lot of people, this would have been a stopping point.
This would have been why I never could be literate. I never had the opportunity to go anywhere. I'm just a victim. And I don't hear any of that in what he said. I got with it, I got started. It's posed several difficulties in my life, but I've managed to overcome them and thank goodness I had the opportunity to learn the Braille. So again, it's this positive attitude again and again.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah. I think, again, his oral history has so many powerful key points in it from his vulnerability of sharing how he was adopted, that whole piece. And his parents played a pretty significant role in his development as well. I think we have a clip about that as well.
Adelmo Vigil:
I think one of the biggest things, Gary, that really stood out was the confidence or the belief that my parents had in me as a child. I mean, mom and dad did not think of me less than anybody else that was sighted. I mean, I remember having to go chop wood and then bring it home just like any other sided child in the community.
I did some sheep herding. We had a sheep and we used to go up to the mountains. And a lot of those things, working, stacking hay and feeding the cows and all of that, I did. Now, the only part that dad was a little bit more cautious, but he still didn't stop me from was riding a horse and mainly because he was afraid that the horse would go under a tree and tear my face up.
And that was the thing that he would always watch, but we would ride together. He would ride his horse and I'd ride mine. And if he saw something, he'd tell me, "Watch it. There's some branches there." I do remember one time we had this horse that was pretty good with me. I didn't have any problems with him.
I could go get it wherever. I mean, I'd call it and he'd come to me. And one day we were up in the mountains and I told Dad, I said, "I want to ride the horse by myself because he was going to take a load of wood in the truck." And he said, "Well, I'm concerned." He says that he might go against the trees or something and hurt you. I said, "No, I'll be okay. He'll be fine." I said, "Let me do it. " And he did.
And that horse walked, I know he had to have walked in the middle of the road the whole time so that my face and my body did not hit no branches or anything all the way down to the ranch. I like that
Gary Wunder:
Story.
Adelmo Vigil:
Yeah, I mean, it was really beautiful because I felt that ... I mean, the horses knew that I couldn't see. It almost appears that way. Mom and
Anil Lewis:
Dad
Adelmo Vigil:
Never put limitations on me in a way that they said, "No, you're blind. You can't do that. " They expected me. And in my mind, that is what has helped me be as successful as I've been in teaching and in working with the commission. And if all of what I've been able to accomplish was their attitude of, you can do it.
Gary Wunder:
Yes. I think sometimes we got the idea from our parents that you can do it, and that was exactly the right message. Sometimes they didn't know how, and sometimes they didn't know what was realistic, but I think the idea that you can do it is helpful. And I didn't realize how much trouble my parents got in from other family members by letting me do some of the things that I did. Did you ever hear any of that from your ...
Adelmo Vigil:
My biological mom would get upset at my dad because sometimes he would say that they were expecting too much from me, which I did have two other blind brothers in my biological family and a blind sister, and they never had the opportunities that I got as an adopted child. They never got to go to the school for the blind ... Well, one of them went for a year when he was five years old. And then after that, they kept him home because they didn't want him to be feeling like he was alone, but yet they didn't support him in his education.
And so my sister finally left home and went to California and got some help there as much as she could get on her own. And my other brother also moved to California and got some help there. And the one that went to the school for the blind when he was five was working at a sawmill in Colorado and got a lot, came back and hit him and killed him.
And so he was in the wrong place. And so I think that's what, like you just finished saying, a lot of times the expectation, it's good, but sometimes it was not real. And I remember one time my dad and my mom got into a big old fight because we were trying to get the cows in the corral, and my dad told me to stand at a certain place to keep him from going past me.
Well, about three of them decided they were going to challenge me. And when they started running toward them coming toward me, and I wasn't going to stand in front of three cows, and so I moved, and man, I got into so much trouble because I didn't stop him. And I remember mom and dad getting into arguments saying, "Well, he couldn't see him." And yeah, that was true. The only thing I could do was hear him coming at me.
And so dad sometimes seemed like he really didn't understand that there was a limitation there.
Anil Lewis:
Wow, that's a tough love story.
Melissa Riccobono:
Okay. That's real work. Sheep herding, cows running at you. I mean, that's ranch work. As a city girl,
Anil Lewis:
I know
Melissa Riccobono:
Nothing about any of this.
Anil Lewis:
You're not a city girl. Didn't you mix some cows up in Wisconsin?
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, my mom grew up on a farm, so I knew I never milked any cows, but my grandfather did have a farm and did have cows when I was very young. But of course I was young. I mean, they were huge, and even the farm dog was huge. And oh my gosh, Gosh,
Anil Lewis:
Anyway, that's a whole other story. I love that this story, again, speaks to one of the fundamental understandings that we have as an organization, that the parents really are that first line of setting high expectations. And I love hearing stories about parents that treat their blind kids just like they would aside a child.
Because again, as Gary's pointing out, sometimes they get ridiculed for that because people think that they should be doing more for their children rather than encouraging them to be as independent as possible. So I love the stories that Adelmo was sharing here. Gary, does it get kind of weird listening to yourself while you're here live listening to you? Do you feel like there's a dockel ganger?
Gary Wunder:
Yeah. I sometimes think, did I really need to interrupt? Did I need to steer it or was he doing fine himself?
Anil Lewis:
I think the way you do it makes people comfortable because it's more conversational rather than them feeling that they have to present. So I love the way that you conduct the interviews.
Gary Wunder:
So I find so many parallels between Adelmo and me. I had a horse and he says he knows that his horse knew he was blind. If my horse knew I was blind, he did not care.
Anil Lewis:
You had a practical joke high expectation. That's right.
Gary Wunder:
If he could rub me off against a fence, he would do it. If he could run under trees, he would do it. And my brothers and my sister used to ride with me and they would usually ride in front of us ahead or beside me. And they would say, duck. Now, their attention span was not all that good.
So when they said duck, you didn't have two seconds to think about whether to duck. You would duck. And this was such a conditioned response with me that we could be driving down the road, making fun of me about being so hooked in this word. And one of them would yell duck and I would duck in a car.
Melissa Riccobono:
So Gary, my dad used to take my sister and me running in a big field, but there was a fence. So he would say, when I say stop, you stop. And it is the same thing. When someone says, "Stop, I will stop on a dime." And I usually put my hands up by my head because I think, "Oh, there's going to be something coming up in front of me. I understand this. I got to get this completely." You
Anil Lewis:
Guys have the right ones though. My friends always tell me after I've had the exchange, like after the tree branch hits me in the head, they say, "Duck."
Melissa Riccobono:
Boom, stop.
Anil Lewis:
Oh. Yeah. So counter blessings.
Gary Wunder:
I like his cow herding story also because we had cows and one of my jobs was to water the bowl.
Anil Lewis:
And
Gary Wunder:
We had a 20 gallon container that I was supposed to use and I was supposed to take this 20 gallon container and reach over the fence and dup it into a big water bucket. And when that bull would come up and snort and hit the fence, and I would back off with that water pail, I would like to believe that the reason the front of my pants were wet had to do with ... But I'm not really sure. But the bowl got watered.
Anil Lewis:
Oh
Melissa Riccobono:
My gosh.
Gary Wunder:
Even if sometimes I did too.
Anil Lewis:
I love
Melissa Riccobono:
It. 20 gallons. How do you even lift a 20 gallon? Geez, that's something.That's a story. So Gary, has anybody done an oral history with you? Let's just get that out of the way because I think you'd be an amazing oral history participant.
Gary Wunder:
I had one done in 2012 and I've listened to it and I like it, but I think that there are a lot of stories that have been triggered in me that I could have told that would've made the interview better. And so one of the things we're doing in the oral history project is we're giving people different shots at it. So how life was for you at 40 may not be the same as the way it is at 60. Maybe you have different perspectives on other things.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah. Yeah. And certainly more experiences, more life, more stories, because every day's a story, right? Even if it's just I got up and had a cup of coffee, that's a story. It's a Seinfeld, the day about nothing.
Gary Wunder:
One of the reasons we do the oral histories is to try to help blind people of the future. And I still, I think Delmo was tremendously blessed, but I look at people that we see in our Bell programs. And one person told us, "I can't carry the Braille Writer to another room because my mother says the Braille writer is too expensive and I will break it. "
And we had to convince her that she could carry a Braille writer. Another one said, "I have never had the experience of running." And so we put up a rope with two poles and a knot near the end where she was to stop. And she said, "This is the first time I've ever been involved in any kind of physical competition."
Anil Lewis:
Now,
Gary Wunder:
When you hear a Delmo story, that's a very different story and it points to what we need to be seeing that our kids get. It isn't just a historical perspective. It's a commentary on what has to happen in the future for people to grow up and feel good about themselves.
Anil Lewis:
And that's really what I love about the whole oral history project. The sharing of stories does two things. One, it creates opportunities where we recognize synergies, right? Like you and Melissa were vibing around the different things that he said, but also for those who haven't had those experiences, it enlightens them to understand that blindness doesn't prohibit them from hurting sheep.
So I love that because so many people, they're existing in this world and they're thinking that they're the only blind person, but by tapping into these stories, they can really find a comfortable space to learn and grow themselves. We talked about parents and the role that they played, but I also think that a positive piece of what Adelmo shared in his interview is the importance of mentors in his life. So let's listen to a clip about his mentoring experiences.
Adelmo Vigil:
And I mentioned to you that I had three uncles who were blind and one aunt. My aunt was a homemaker, and so she basically stayed home. So he had two kids and raised the kids and stayed home. My uncles, I had three different role models. One of them worked out on the mountains being a logger and cutting logs and with wood and everything else. I knew that that wasn't something that I wanted to do, but I knew that as a blind person, if I wanted to, I could do that because he had proven that, that he could.
I had another uncle who grew up all of his life and complained about being blind and stayed home, never accomplished anything, blamed his parents for his blindness and was very angry. And Uncle Joe really tried to be as independent as possible. And then he ended up going to the sheltered workshop in Alamogordo where they made brooms and maybe now that would be frowned on.
But at that time, that was what he could do working, cleaning the yard and cutting the weeds and doing whatever the maintenance person needed to do. He was pretty much my inspiration because I knew that if my Uncle Joe could do it, do something like that, I could accomplish that or more. Uncle Joe, one of the things about him, he had been at the School for the Blind and his young age, and for whatever reason, he didn't stay there very long. So education was not what he had, but he always encouraged me to continue going to school and to build that, build my education, to continue building my skills. And I think that's where I've always maintained that he was my role model.
Anil Lewis:
Nice. And with this one, I think it's powerful because so many times we think that the role model or the mentor has to be someone that exhibits this excellent blindness skillset. And I maintain that it's even more important that individuals who don't have the skills continue to recognize and amplify the importance of it. I think there's a remarkable difference between someone setting an example because it's nice because they say if you see it, you can believe it and achieve it. But I think also recognizing and being vulnerable enough to say that I could have been so much more or with the acquisition of this skill, I could have had such a greater quality of life is also equally impactful.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah. And just the people that are available to you. So my role model growing up was a woman who, woman and her husband that lived in our town, they both lost vision a little later in life. And looking at them now, it's a little bit sad. Small town, I don't know that they ever, we had buses for a while. I don't know that they ever took the buses by themselves. When we saw them out in public, they were always with friends of theirs.
But I mean, as far as role models went, the woman crocheted, she knitted, her house was always clean, she cooked, she would give my sister little braille books with recipes in them because my sister really liked cooking. She was involved in teaching in her church. I mean, there was a lot worse role models I could have. And even though I didn't spend a lot of time with her, at least I knew there were blind adults out there, and at least I knew that I could have a house of my own, I could live on my own, I could be married because they were married, they had a house, they were doing these things.
And when my sister went and visited, because she was older, so she visited them more often than I did, she did say sometimes like, "Oh, maybe when I'm older, I'll do things a little bit differently because I don't know that I always want to go out with my friends. So maybe I can. " So I mean, she kind of had the attitude of, "This is good, but maybe this is just a start. She lost her vision later. Maybe I can do things a little bit different." I don't have to do them exactly like she does, but I also am learning some really good ways that she does label her canned goods or braille her medicines or whatever else. So Gary, did you have some role models growing up?
Gary Wunder:
Well, my folks believed that by the time I got to grow up, be 16, 17, I'd be seeing because men were landing on the moon. And so they didn't work at all to help me find blind role models. I had plenty of role models that set high expectations, but the question is, could you really do them as a blind person?
Now, when I got to be 16 and 17 and decided that I wanted a guide dog and started attending federation meetings, I saw lots of folks and they did have high expectations. I had a seventh grade math teacher and here's an interesting thing. He was a role model to me, but everybody who talked about him said he was in Menza. And I thought if that's what it takes to cut it as a blind guy, I don't have that. I'm not a Menza guy.
I'm proud of the intelligence that I have, but he has 30 or 40 points on me in terms of IQ.
Anil Lewis:
And we've been able to explain what Menza is to our readers, to our listeners rather.
Gary Wunder:
It's an organization that is dedicated to the top 2% of the most intelligent people in the world.
Anil Lewis:
Oh, wow. Talk about high expectations.
Gary Wunder:
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Now, when I met a blind machinist, when I met lawyers who were smart but not mens of people, a law student who was bright enough got me into the National Federation of the Blind and we could have discussions and he didn't run circles around me. And I got a lot of role models, but mostly blind role models came only after I found the Federation.
Anil Lewis:
My role model in a weird way was my brother, who if you've heard me tell the story, unfortunately the systems failed him and he ended up being a sheltered workshop employee, much like Adelmo's uncle. So he didn't really teach me about blindness skills or anything like that, but he was happy as a blind person. And that I still hold to today to my heart that regardless of what I was challenged or faced with, I could still be happy.
And those of you who know me, I try to find the humor in everything. So I think that's very important that it's not just about those blind skills. It's about our attitudes and our perspective on blindness. But like I said, the systems failed him. And I imagine that Delmo probably felt the need to give back based on his story around education because he eventually spent 16 years as an educator.
So he talked about that during his oral history interview as well. So let's hear that clip.
Adelmo Vigil:
I thought that my only type of job that I'd be able to do is work at the School for the Blind. Well, by the time I finished my, I was completing all of my classes in college, I had decided that I did not want to go to the School for the Blind to do my student teaching. I wanted to do it in the public schools.
And so I was pretty resourceful throughout my college too, because I would meet people and talk to them. And one of my night classes, I happened to have a teacher that was there. And so we were talking and I asked him what he did. He said he was a third grade teacher. And I said, "Hey, that's what I wanted to do. "
And in conversation, after a few sessions, he said, "Whenever you're ready to do your student teaching, let me know. " And I said, "Oh yeah, I will." And so at the time that I was completing my education and I had to do my student teaching, I went to talk to my professor and he said, well, he says, "We have to call the School for the Blind because that's the only place that you can do your teaching. The only ones that you can teach is blind kids.
You're not going to be able to teach public side of kids." And I said, "No." I said, "I want to do it in the public schools." And he said, "Well, nobody's going to take you. " I said, "Well, yes, there will. I have a man, a teacher that said he would take me. " And he said, "Well, I don't believe it. " I said, "Well, I do. " And I gave him the name and the principal's name and he said, "Well, I'll go and check with them, but I don't think so. " And I said, "Okay." I said, "I'll be back Monday or whenever the next time." I said, "And see what you found out. " When I came back, he said, "Well, to my surprise, they are willing to take you.
" And I said, "Okay, well, good." I applied for a job there in Silver City at the school district and after a while I noticed that I wasn't being called. So I called Mr. Columbus, Travis Columbus, who was my teacher that I had worked with. I said, "I haven't gotten any offers." And he said, "Well, I'll tell you what. "
He said, "Let me check." And he talked to his principal and what the district was doing. They would send a list of names to principals with all the people available for hiring, and my name was not on there. I said, "Well, so what do you think? " And he said, "Well, I think you need to talk to the superintendent." So I made an appointment with the superintendent. He said, "Well, the reason you're blind, they said they're blind and they're not going to call you.
What you need to do, " he said, is go talk to the principals.
So from there, we went to go see an attorney and Travis went with me and we went through that process, filed a complaint against with human rights against the district. Later, the director's board went to Travis and said, "Adelmo has a lawsuit against us and your name keeps popping up that you're supporting them."
He said, "And you work for us." And Travis said, "Yes." He says, the problem is, he said, "You guys are missing out on a great teacher, and if I have to leave this district and go somewhere else to work, I will, but I will back Adelmo up the whole time." And the principal and the president of the board went back to the board the next meeting and said, "We need to settle with Adelmo. We're not going to win this one." Again, to me, Gary, there are angels in my life that have been there for me.
I really don't know, Gary, where I drew the strength from, except the support that I had from people like the authex in Columbus and my sweetheart by then, Suladet.
Anil Lewis:
Beautiful.
Adelmo Vigil:
And the belief that they had, my parents, that's the only thing that I can draw back and say they wear my strength and my belief in God. That's the biggest thing. My first principal, he was kind of tough. He didn't want me to go out on the playground or anything because he was afraid I was going to get hurt. And I challenged him on that and told him that why. And he said, well, he says, "I'm afraid that one of these kids will throw a ball and you don't see the ball coming and hit you in the head."
And I said, "Well, many side teachers have gotten hit in the head." But anyway, we had that discussion and he would not give me any duties. So I transferred to a different school there within the Shiprock District and within the little town of Shiprock. And this principal, I told him, I said, "I want to have duties just like everybody else." And he said, Mr. Damos, he says, "You will have duties just like everybody else." And I got to that school and I had playground duties, I had breakfast duties, I had lunch duties, I had bus duties.
And then he started asking me to be on the curriculum committee, different committees that they were asking teachers to be to the point that I finally had to tell, I need not to go to some of these meetings because I'm spending too much time away from my kids.
Melissa Riccobono:
Gosh, that's so beautiful.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah. And he goes on to talk about all of his other accomplishments working at the commission and now working with the National Buying the Certification Board, et cetera. So a tremendous story, but like I said, we don't have the whole time on the podcast to play it, but we will make these archives, these audio histories available. But I think it's important before we leave to listen to the clip that the conversation between Adelmo and Gary around the diversity of the Federation.
Gary Wunder:
When I was a child, almost everybody was the different one, the weird one. If you were of a different color, that was a major problem. If you were of a different religion, that was a major problem. If you were a member of a different socioeconomic class, that was a problem. And I had to work through all of those. And college and other experiences have made me find that I have more in common with humanity than I thought.
And there are fewer people that I consider the other, the different, the bizarre, the weird, the inferior. And it's a little bit hard to work your way out of those when you're kind of raised with the idea that if you're a white male from the Midwest, you're certainly better than the people from the coasts and you're certainly better than the other people who live in other countries and on and on and on.
Anyway, it's an ongoing challenge to ... I mean, I've rejected a lot of that stuff, but to be open to new ideas and new challenges and to say, "This doesn't have to be my life for it to have truth or verity. If it's your life, I can still hear it and I can still understand it and I can still respect that you are who you are.
Adelmo Vigil:
" And Gary, you just said something that made me think, and that's something that I think for me, being Hispanic and there's always been those things and being able to get through those processes, those battles and not becoming a battle, a fight, but maybe a challenge, but I'm going to get above that, like that principle saying that Adele was too dumb. He'd never accomplished anything. It was more of who I was as a person, that attack. But my thing was being able to prove to him that didn't matter what he thought, it was what I believed in me.
Gary Wunder:
Yes.
Adelmo Vigil:
And I think that's the whole thing. And I think you and I, we come from a different perspectives, but at the same time, I think our personalities are probably more closely alike than separate in a lot of ways.
Gary Wunder:
I agree.
Anil Lewis:
And I love that because that's just the model that I think the world should be following. And it's those candid conversations of where we come at it as Adelmo says from different perspectives, but really focus on those commonalities that bring us closer together. I think that's just the powerful message. And I think that also is the core to the strength of the Federation as we continue to fight to be inclusive and welcoming to anyone being brought together through that common bond of blindness, that's, I think, to the core of who we are as an organization and to our strength as an organization.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah. And that's why we need everybody, right? It would be so boring if we just had white men from the Midwest or white women from Wisconsin or just- Black men from Georgia. Just black men from Georgia. Exactly. The beautiful part is that we ... And I do love that we now talk much more about what do those intersectionalities mean because there are some differences and there are definitely different challenges that people face because of multiple disabilities, colors of their skin, socioeconomic status, all of those types of things. But the main thing is that we all need to be in the organization together. And once we're all together, then we know more about what it's like for all sorts of people and we can do what we can to make a real difference.
Anil Lewis:
Great wonder you have a wonderful job and we appreciate you doing it at the level that you do. You bring out, as you said, the head and the heart of the people you talk with. So we'll leave you with our closing thoughts. Do you have anything to share with our listeners?
Gary Wunder:
Well, I think that it's a wonderful job to have. I hope it's a program that we carry forward and that we are able to share it in a way that makes people understand that the folks they consider as the other, which may be future generations, I may be part of the other to Gen Z. But with the ability to listen and opening oneself up to active listening and a willingness to love, we're going to make it.
Anil Lewis:
Beautiful. I love that. And I think that's a great way to end this episode. Again, if you have stories to share, please reach out to us. But until then, remember, you can live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Blindness is not what holds you back.
Announcer:
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