Announcer: Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast presented by the National Federation of the Blind, the transformative membership and advocacy organization of Blind Americans. Live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono: Hello and welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast. I am Melissa Riccobono, but Anil Lewis is not here today, Aww.
Chris Danielsen: Aww.
Melissa Riccobono: But we have someone else with us. Yay! I'm here with my co-host for the day,
Chris Danielsen: Chris Danielsen.
Melissa Riccobono: Yeah, how are you Chris?
Chris Danielsen: I am doing great. I am doing great. How are you doing, Melissa?
Melissa Riccobono: I am doing fine. It's gotten a little bit colder here in Baltimore, although yesterday was very warm and now it's kind of cold again. I don't know, but I'm doing fine. I can't believe it's November, looking forward to Thanksgiving, but we do have another really important celebration day to honor people before Thanksgiving comes. And I think that's a little bit about what our podcast is about today, right?
Chris Danielsen: That is exactly right. And you're right about the weather. I wish it would pick a season and stay with it, but anyway, that's neither here nor there. But we are delighted to be producing a podcast to celebrate Veterans Day, which is coming up. It will be coming up very shortly when people hear this podcast, and so we hope everybody's being prepared to celebrate it. And I'm really excited that we're going to celebrate Veterans Day on the podcast because as you know Melissa, I grew up in a military family. My dad was in the army almost until I graduated from high school.
Melissa Riccobono: Wow. Oh my goodness. Thank him for his service. That is amazing. My dad was in the Army as well, but he was in the army long before I was born, but he did do service in Vietnam and Mark's father is in the Navy and he also was in combat in Vietnam. So I certainly very much appreciate our veterans and realize that they have impacted all of our lives in quite a few ways, whether we are cognizant of it the way we should be or not.
So I'm really glad also that we are talking about this on the podcast and that we have two veterans to help us celebrate and to help us understand the role of veterans in the National Federation of the Blind, which is really exciting.
Chris Danielsen: Absolutely. My dad was also in Vietnam, but people have served in different conflicts as well, depending on which generation they were. And so we honor all veterans at this time, and we have two representatives of our National Association of Blind Veterans, which is a division of the National Federation of the Blind. So Mr. President, I'll start with you and let you introduce yourself and then our other guest can do the same.
Vernon Humphrey: Thank you very much. My name is Vernon Humphrey. I'm a retired Master Sergeant, United States Army. My father is a retired major, Command Sergeant Major, United States Army. So I really didn't have a choice of which field or service I joined. I wanted to follow the footsteps of my hero. He served two tours in Vietnam. I was in for twenty years, but I never saw combat. At one time it bothered me, because most of my friends had that camaraderie from being together over there, and I felt that I missed out on something for what I was trained for. But we found out that I was blind during Desert Storm, so it was probably a good thing I didn't go over there. [Laughs]
And as you mentioned, I'm the president of the National Association of Blind Veterans, a division of the National Federation of the Blind. We have service members from all services, except for the Space Force, but I'm sure we'll get some of those soon. And like you said, we'd like to honor all veterans because many of them gave it all, but those that survived have still given more than the average person has. And one thing that I want to mention that is often neglected when we're celebrating veterans is that the hardest job in the service is that of the spouse and the kids.
Because when my dad was in Vietnam, we worried about it every day. When I was deployed or somewhere, I went on some humanitarian aid missions, my wife and kids stayed home, but they worried about me and I was just out doing my job. I didn't have to worry about them or the finances or the house or the kids or chicken pox or the flu or any of that stuff. And if it weren't for the spouses, we couldn't do our job. So we appreciate it. And by the way, my wife is also an Army veteran, so she knew what she was getting into when we got married. And so that's my introduction.
Chris Danielsen: Well, that's fantastic. And although you never served in combat, we still need everybody that is in the armed forces to be ready to serve. And it's so important. And the Army and the other branches, the Air Force, Marines and Navy and the Space Force do so much important work even when we are not at war or when we are not in combat operations. And so I hope everybody understands that and really thanks everybody for their service, whether they've been in combat or not.
And sometimes people give the last full measure even after their combat experience. For example, my own father, because he was exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam, that caused him to get cancer that was ultimately terminal. So everybody makes sacrifices. And from a military family, my mom also of course, and me and my sister, we made the sacrifices because we worried about Dad. And also those moves every three years can be tough as well. [Melissa laughs] All of a sudden your dad gets orders and you ve got to go to a new place. So I appreciate you saying that so much. It really is a family affair, but also there are good things about it because the military becomes your extended family and military families and military people really look out for each other. Sorry, I was rambling a little bit there. So we have another guest. So why don't you introduce yourself?
Jos Centeno:
Yes, thank you. My name is Jos Centeno. I joined the Marine Corps on December 4th, 1973, and I retired December 31st, 1994 with twenty-one years active service, and I retired as a gunnery sergeant. I must say it was probably one of the best experiences of my life when I joined the Marine Corps, especially being raised in New York City. My father, he's a Korean War veteran, he's resting at the VA National Cemetery in Calvary National Cemetery, which is in Long Island, New York. I have two brothers, both was in the Army, and one sister, which was in the Air Force. My career has been, I would say, fulfilling. I'm married to the same woman in forty-one years of marriage.
Chris Danielsen: Congratulations.
Jos Centeno: Thank you. And we have a son. He's in Champaign, Illinois with a wife and we have two grandkids, and then there's another grandkid coming in February. We're kind of ready for that. As a matter of fact, we're going to go to Champaign, Illinois, this weekend.
Melissa Riccobono: Wonderful.
Jos Centeno: For Veterans Day, so we are going to spend time with him, the brother-in-law and the two grandkids. So I couldn't be any happier. I'm happy with what I have and thank God for that.
Melissa Riccobono: Absolutely.
Chris Danielsen: Absolutely.
Melissa Riccobono: And it's interesting, when you think about veterans and you think about blindness, the veterans really have helped to pave the way in a lot of ways for things that we sort of take for granted in some ways. So the long white cane now, of course, it was a different type of cane back in the day, but the reason that we have the cane is because veterans came back. Now, I mean, it's very sad that that's the reason because they gave the sacrifice of their eyesight, but at the same time, the rehabilitation sort of started, I think guide dogs to a certain extent as well. Certainly the talking book program from the Library for the Blind that was made of course for children too, but also for veterans.
So there's a lot of things that we should be grateful to veterans for, but sort of the blindness aspect is sort of interesting as well. But we of course in the National Federation of the Blind very much believe in blind veterans. So I mean, I don't know, Chris, we want these two gentlemen to talk a little bit about just what the National Association of Blind Veterans does and how it gives to the National Federation of the Blind as an integral part of the movement.
Chris Danielsen: Well, yes, I think that's a great topic, and I do want to say you're absolutely right. A lot of the initial pioneering in rehabilitation did come about as a service for veterans, but we should celebrate veterans anyway. We particularly celebrate in the National Federation of the Blind because we have so many members that are veterans and we have a division of blind veterans. So why don't you gentlemen talk about the special role that the National Association of Blind Veterans has in the National Federation of the Blind?
Vernon Humphrey: Well, first of all, I have to say that I have been married forty years, not quite as long as you. I have three children and seven grandchildren. So the grandchildren are great. If I'd have known that I'd have had them first. [Chris laughs] The division was created about seventeen years ago, and we have about ninety active members and we're spread out all over the United States. So one of the best things that we do is we keep in touch with one another. The VA recently started a buddy check thing where they wanted people to contact other veterans to see how they're doing. And we were ahead of the ball game. We already do that, check on one another and just see how you're doing, touch base. Then when we talk to one another at national conference, I might find a blind veteran. One of the greatest things we do is we have a celebration of freedom at our national conference, and the NFB allows us to bring all the veterans up on stage to introduce themselves and to honor them.
But we also have a color guard of blind veterans that bring in the flags and we sing the National Anthem, say the Pledge of Allegiance and do all that stuff that feels so patriotic and gets everybody's blood flowing. But when we meet the blind veterans that, I might meet a guy that was in Korea and he's an aging blind veteran and he's blind now because of macular degeneration or diabetes or something, and I talked to him and said, "Well, have you gone to the VA?" And he said, "No, no, it's not service connected." And that gives me an opportunity to spread the word and say, "If you have a hearing loss or if you have a vision loss, you still have some benefits from the VA, whether it's service connected or not." And they go, "Really? I didn't know that." Yeah. So we get the word out.
And then the National Federation of the Blind has a great government section. I don't know the technical name for it, maybe one of you can correct me. But when there are laws that need to be passed to make a level playing field for the blind citizens, if there's something that's unique to veterans, then they are more open than anything else for us to say, "Hey, can you look at this as something?" Then every year in January, late January, early February, we have something called the Great Gathering. We go to Washington DC and we talk to the congressmen and the senators. One of the bills we've got passed was that there's something called space-available flight. So any military craft that has seats on it, I can go sign up because I'm a retiree and I can get on that plane if there's room, and they will fly me at $15 for the meal or something like that. It's cheap.
But in the past, it was only retirees. Thanks to the NFB and bugging Congress, the bill got changed to a hundred percent disabled veterans. So you don't have to be a retiree now to do that. So that's something else that we do. And of course when we get together at National Convention, we reunite with one another. We check on how's the family doing? I had a friend of mine say, "Is your loss of hearing covered by VA?" And I said, "I don't know, I'll have to go check." And so I went back and I applied and I just had that done and well, I'm waiting on the results, so I don't know what the approval is. But any time any one of us has a problem, the National Federation of the Blind has wonderful schools for the blind and the VA has thirteen, they call them BRCs.
And so by getting together and you're talking to one another, I found out that one of them, I think in California, has a tandem bicycle training. It's the only one of the BRCs that do. And I can go there, get the training and get issued a bicycle and learn how to do a tandem bike ride because being on it with another person is completely different than being on it by yourself. [Chuckles] So those are some of the many things that we do, but more than anything else, we're there to support one another and make sure that we're all okay because there is a severe problem with veteran suicides. So without somebody checking and saying, "Are you okay?", a lot of times they fall through the cracks. We need to make sure that we're okay.
Chris Danielsen: So just like our other communities within the National Federation of the Blind that are represented by our divisions and our interest groups, you are a resource for each other. And there are particular things that veterans who are blind, whether they were blinded in service or not, need to know. And you all need each other's support. So just like other groups within the Federation, you're supporting each other and you have that extended family within the National Federation of the Blind. That is really fantastic.
Melissa Riccobono: It is. And I think the other thing that is so fantastic is you give to the movement in so many ways. We're happy as a movement to help veterans, but we wouldn't know that there are laws that needed to be changed without you. But then you also help with the greater movement of the National Federation of the Blind because you don't just advocate for veterans issues. You help advocate for whatever we're advocating for because we're all blind people. And also, of course, the philosophy of the National Federation of the Blind is something that is hopeful. We can live the life we want. You can live the life you want. Those are powerful words.
And I think when you were talking about veteran suicide, I think sometimes that happens because things have changed so much and hope gets lost. And so I think we are a really, I hope, important part for veterans that have lost their vision, whether or not it was because of service, it's still an adjustment. And I hope that one of the things that the veterans do is to help people gain the resources that they need as veterans, but then also just letting them know that there's something further, something bigger, something else they can be a part of, and that blindness does not need to hold them back in the ways that maybe they thought it did.
So that's amazing to me to think about just sort of how we're all interconnected and how all of our divisions do this in one way or another. But of course, because of this podcast being about veterans, we're talking about our National Association of Blind Veterans. I know that our other gentleman has also done some work in order to help gain recognition for the NFB. Is that right, Chris? I think there's something about running. I'm a runner myself, so I was very intrigued by this.
Chris Danielsen: Oh, definitely. Yeah. Jos , why don't you talk about that because you're being such a great ambassador for the National Association of Blind Veterans right now.
Jos Centeno: Thank you, Madame Riccobono, for recognizing me. My story goes back when I joined the Marine Corps, I ran my first marathon and it was the Marine Corps marathon that I participated in. I ran like one marathon and six half-marathons a year. And so I lost my vision in August of 2015 because of glaucoma. It was service connected. So when I retired in 1994, I started working for the US Postal Service in 1996. I was on eye drops and all that trying to control the glaucoma. And then finally in August of 2015, that's when the glaucoma won the battle. And then at that time, my mom, she was fighting cancer. And when she found out that I was losing my vision, she was more concerned about me because she would always cry on the phone for me even though she was battling cancer.
And so when I lost my vision, finally August of 2015, I started getting depressed. I didn't run. I couldn't run because of my blindness, something that I did all my life. And so I kind of gave up. I went to the VA here in Dayton, and they have a great low vision clinic. And the doctor there is Dr. Morand, and he suggested that I should go to the Blind Rehab Center at the VA in Cleveland. And I kind of hesitated for a little bit, and then he put me in. And then at that time, my mom, she passed away January of 2016. So I decided to go to the Blind Rehab Center in Cleveland. I arrived there March of 2016, and then I graduated May of 2016, and then I looked up into heaven, and graduation day, I looked up into heaven and I said to my mom, "Mom, you don't have to worry about me anymore. I'm graduating from the Blind Rehab Center."
Chris Danielsen: That's awesome. And then how did you go from that to getting back into running and then into the Federation or which came first?
Jos Centeno: Well, the running came first because the Blind Rehab Center, they were also teaching me on how to run on the treadmill again, that was part of my class.
Chris Danielsen: There you go.
Jos Centeno: Yeah, that was part of my class. I would go to physical therapy and then they would teach me to run on the treadmill again. And so I did this for about a couple of weeks. So then when I graduated and I came back to Dayton, I signed up for the Huber Heights, Ohio Half Marathon. And I asked my doctor at the Low Vision Clinic, because he's a runner, I asked him, "Hey Doctor, how would you like to be my guide for the Huber Heights half-marathon?" And he said, yes. So Huber Heights was the first half-marathon being blind.
So I went and ran a few half-marathons, and then I heard about the National Federation of the Blind, and I attended one of the meetings with Dr. Peters. She's the president of the Miami Valley chapter here in Dayton. And also I became a member of the National Federation of the Blind. So I wanted to honor the National Federation of the Blind. So I ran the Cleveland Half Marathon in October of last year. I wanted to represent the National Federation of the Blind.
Chris Danielsen: During Blind Equality Achievement Month! Yeah!
Jos Centeno: Yes. And then also I was honored because President Riccobono, he was in New Zealand on one of his monthly president reports, he was talking from New Zealand, and I was caught by surprise. He mentioned me on his report, that I represented the national. So then after that, I wanted to do another road race and represent the National Association of Blind Veterans, which I did. It has been real good to me, the National Federation of the Blind, to include the National Association of Blind Veterans. And I'm going to continue because now I know what my mission in life is. I mean, I lost my vision when I was sixty-one years old, and that's the time where you want to retire and enjoy life and all that. But now I have a second life, and that's being a blind veteran. And so I'm going to continue to do what I love and it does enrich other runners, whether they're blind or they're not. You would not believe the support that I get when I'm running.
And people see my blind vest with my running partner. I mean, they say "Good job, way to go." And I mean there was even a lady runner, we passed her, according to my guide. She was walking and we had about three more miles to go. And then when we crossed the finish line, the same lady that we passed, she came up to us and she was crying and she said, because she saw my blind vest that I was blind, it motivated her to finish the race. And she did. And she came over and she wanted us to know that. And you know what? It just goes to show that even though you are blind, you can still live the life you want. Blindness is not what holds us back.
Chris Danielsen: There you go. Can't say it any better than that. I know. And we'll probably try to drop in some audio from one of these. I know you make videos and you always publicize the National Federation of the Blind and the National Association of Blind Veterans.
Jos Centeno: Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono: Well, that's wonderful. And I think it would be good to hear from President Humphrey to see if there's other ways that the veterans are getting the word out and helping the National Federation of the Blind. But why don't we do that after a quick break?
Announcer: Do you know that the National Federation of the Blind accepts vehicles? You and your friends and family can simply call 855-659-9314 or visit nfb.org/give.
Melissa Riccobono: All right, we are back. We've heard a lot now about how Mr. Centeno has been such an ambassador for the National Federation of the Blind and the National Association of Blind Veterans and really living the life he wants and using that to really help people understand that blindness doesn't need to hold them back.
So President Humphrey, are there other things that you're doing as the National Association of Blind Veterans to get the word out? Are there things that you do personally or other things that other veterans who are in the group do? And what would you like our podcast listeners to know about the National Association of Blind Veterans?
Vernon Humphrey: Most of us are members of multiple organizations. So if I'm at a Blinded Veterans Association meeting, I talk to them about the NFB and the NABV as well. Sometimes I go to Disabled American Veterans meetings and I meet other veterans there. Many of them are starting, like I mentioned earlier, starting to have eye problems. And they did not know that there was a recourse. And so I tell them about what the VA can do, what the NABV can do, what the NFB can do.
Something I neglected to mention earlier is our membership has not just blind veterans. Our membership is made up of anybody that appreciates veterans. One of our board members is a veteran, but he's sighted, his wife is blind, so he gets to see what she can do and not be held back. And it brings in a different perspective. He's part of our color guard as well.
So we have blind veterans. We have one member who's blind, his father was a veteran. He was never in. One thing I hear a lot of the NFB members say was "I wanted to join, but I couldn't." And I can understand that wholeheartedly because I wanted to be like my hero. I wanted to join, and I was lucky enough to do it. They diagnosed me much later in life than normally happens. Other things we do, we have one of our other marine members, we call him Gunny, he's in Arizona, and he had, for the state convention he created, he got a color guard together for the state convention so they could honor the veterans in the Arizona State Convention. He gets together with different veteran organizations in the community and has luncheons for blind veterans and to get them out in the community and see other people and meet other people.
We as an organization bought a Bronze American flag that has the Pledge of Allegiance in text and in Braille and donated it to the National Infantry Museum here outside of Fort Moore. For years it was called Fort Benning, so it's changed its name. Some of you may know it as Benning.
Chris Danielsen: Yep. And my dad worked for General Moore at one point.
Vernon Humphrey: My dad did as well. So they may have known one another, but he was a colonel when my dad worked for him.
Chris Danielsen: Yeah, I don't know that he was a general when my dad worked for him for sure either. But anyway, I digress. Go ahead.
Vernon Humphrey: And then when they were going to mount it, I said, "Where are you going to mount it?" And they would go "Over here." I said, "No, no, no. You got to put it at wheelchair height and you've got to put it where somebody can touch it."
Chris Danielsen: Good for you.
Vernon Humphrey: And they said, "Huh?" And it's like, look, a lot of our veterans are in wheelchairs. A lot of our blind veterans are in wheelchairs. And it is tactile because we want blind people to be able to read the pledge in Braille, which I'm learning. And you can also read the letters and everybody else can see it. And the only reason that that came to mind was I had heard that some organization donated one to a veterans facility and they put it behind the sign-in desk, up on the wall.
Chris Danielsen: Oh my gosh.
Vernon Humphrey: That's like having a Braille sign and putting a piece of glass over it. No, you don't do that. A lot of times people have good intentions to do things for the blind veterans or the disabled veterans, but they don't know how to go about doing it. So when we're in those situations, we advocate for them to stop, wait, think about it. Who's this for? And where are you going to do it and how are you going to do it?
I've been to a couple of things where they gave me something in standard print, which I could read because I have tunnel vision. But it's like, "You have this in large print. Nope. You have it in Braille? Nope." So I like to fuss at the VA about stuff like that.
Chris Danielsen: That's not fussing. That's advocating.
Vernon Humphrey: Advocating.
Melissa Riccobono: Absolutely.
Vernon Humphrey: A couple of weeks ago I had the pleasure of being up in Washington DC for the Department of Veteran Affairs. I met the Secretary of Veteran Affairs and they had their first white cane day and they had a little tent set up outside in a farmer's market, and they had some accessibility things on display. And we were talking to people and explaining to them, and nobody knows what a cane is like until they use one. So we took a blindfold, put it on them, gave them a cane, taught them how to use it, and they can understand a little bit more of what we go through to travel. And one of the things I told the people when I was preparing them to go, I said, "Do you feel the sun on your back?" They said, "Yeah." I said, "Okay, you got to walk a straight line."
They said, "All right." I said, "But when you feel the sun on the side of your face, it's because you started turning. So use that to help you stay straight." And they said, "Really?" And I said, "Yeah, there's all kinds of tricks we use. We find a curb and we follow it. It's called shorelining." So it gave me the opportunity to be in the public and represent the NFB and the NABV with the general population and advocate for blind veterans and advocate for the blind and White Cane Day.
And I am sure there's a thousand things that I'm forgetting that we do because our members are so active in the community. I got a call the other day from somebody in Orlando that for their minor league basketball team, they wanted to put on a thing for veterans and wanted to know if we had any blind veterans in the area. And so I made some calls and got some of the NABV members interested in it, and I got some Blinded Veteran Association members interested in it. I'm trying to get those two organizations to work better together and get membership growth in both. I think that if they join us, then it gives us more numbers. If we join them, it gives them more numbers. And when you go to fight Congress or advocate at Congress, the more numbers you have, the more Congress will listen to you.
Chris Danielsen: And that's certainly our strategy in the National Federation of the Blind. And we certainly love to partner in coalition with others when it makes sense to, and it definitely does in this case. So you definitely, as important as it is, and as much as I love it because I have to say the Celebration of Freedom, there are so many highlights of convention, but that is one of my favorite parts of convention. It means a lot to me, but you're doing so much more. And you know what? I know people struggle with that inspire word, but I go back to Jos' story about the lady that finished the race. He motivated her. That's what he did.
Vernon Humphrey: Yeah, he did. He did. A hundred percent.
Chris Danielsen: And that's what we do for each other. That's what we do. We raise expectations and we motivate each other and we help transform lives in that way. And I didn't think about the idea of people who support veterans and allies joining the division. So you just recruited a new member, gentlemen. So I will make every effort to be at the National Association of Blind Veterans meeting or part of it at the 2024 Convention.
Vernon Humphrey: Ms. Riccobono, there's room for more.
Melissa Riccobono: Yes, no, absolutely. And I always have a zillion things to do at convention, but I think I could also pay my dues because I certainly do very much appreciate veterans. And I just have to say personally, I've been very honored when I've been asked to be a part of the Freedom Celebration. I've been able to hand out ribbons to veterans. I've been able to hand out pins. Our daughter Oriana has helped with the celebration once in a while, so it's always very meaningful. But I love hearing about what you all do year round because you're so right. It's so much more than just the, "Rah rah rah. Here we are at the convention." You guys are really a very important part of our movement year round. And so thank you all not only for your service, but for the work that you're doing to help change what it means to be blind.
Jos Centeno: I'd like to mention if there's a way that maybe like the National Federation of the Blind can reach out more to the VA Medical Center, the Low Vision Clinic. Last month for the very first time, the VA Low Vision Clinic, we were able to get members of the National Federation of the Blind, the Miami Valley chapter. They had a banquet. He invited the National Federation of the Blind members. There was about ten of them that showed up at the VA for the get-together. And that way members of the Low Vision Clinic on the veteran side of the house can meet with members of the National Federation of the Blind. And that turned out to be a very good time.
If we could have something like that, maybe nationwide, where the Low Vision Clinic can reach out to the National Federation of the Blind chapter for their city, that would be a great thing. And also that's one way of getting members from the VA Low Vision Clinic to join the National Federation because I'm the only veteran for the Miami Valley chapter that's a member of the National Federation of the Blind. That's one way of maybe trying to get more veterans involved with the National Federation of the Blind.
Melissa Riccobono: I love that idea because we're always looking for ways to bring in members, and I don't think chapters think about reaching out to blinded veterans groups. So what a fantastic idea.
Chris Danielsen: That is really great. And it's so important because again, it expands the network that those folks have and it allows the Low Vision Clinic to know that the Federation is a resource for people who are having that changing eyesight.
Jos Centeno: Exactly.
Chris Danielsen: This has been so fantastic. I'm so glad that we had both of you on the podcast to really talk about this because it's such an integral part of who we are as an organization, but there are so many ways that we can all be more involved and support each other, and it just goes to show what a big family we are and how veterans are just another part of the big tapestry and family of our organization. And it has been such an honor to have you both, to talk about your experiences and to talk about the work you do. And we're really proud of what we've been able to do, collaborating with the veterans and the Space Available program, and we're always looking for those opportunities. You all are such fantastic advocates, and thank you so much for that.
Jos Centeno: Oh, you're welcome.
Vernon Humphrey: You're more than welcome. It's a pleasure to have this opportunity to speak with y'all and to tell you about the NABV and the veterans. It's always wonderful to talk about, and two other veterans and veterans' kids. I was in your boat. I know where you're at, and I appreciate the service that you and your family gave so your fathers could do their job.
Chris Danielsen: Well, thank you, gentlemen again. Any final thoughts, Melissa?
Melissa Riccobono: I don't think so. I loved this podcast. I hope the listeners also enjoyed it as much as I do. And these gentlemen certainly have a lot of stories to tell, and I'm really glad that we were able to hear from them and understand just a little bit more about the National Association of Blind Veterans.
Chris Danielsen: Absolutely. And until next time, you can live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono: Blindness is not what holds you back.
Announcer: We'd love your feedback. Email [email protected] or call 410-659-9314, extension 2444.