Announcer: Welcome to the Nation's Blind podcast, presented by the National Federation of the Blind, the transformative membership and advocacy organization of blind Americans. Live the life you want!
Melissa Riccobono: Hello and welcome to the Nation's Blind podcast. I'm Melissa Riccobono, and I am here with my wonderful co-host.
Anil Lewis: Anil Lewis. Sometimes I don't know if you're talking about me when you say wonderful, but I'll take that.
Melissa Riccobono: Oh, you're wonderful, Anil. You're wonderful. Actually, very funny…
Anil Lewis: Welcome to the mutual admiration society podcast.
Melissa Riccobono: Oh yes, absolutely. It's actually very funny. I was crocheting in the park the other day and somebody came up to me and was like, "You are a wonder," and I must have looked at that person very funny because I was sort of thinking, am I a wonder for sitting here listening to a concert?
Am I a wonder for breathing? What is going on? And then she said, again, "You're a wonder, that's beautiful." And then I thought, oh, that's what she's talking about. She's not talking about blindness. So often you get the, oh, you're amazing because you can tie your shoes or you can walk, or you can show up at your polling place and vote.
Anil Lewis: I see what you did there.
Melissa Riccobono: And that's what we're going to be talking about.
Anil Lewis: Well done, Melissa. Well done. [Laughter]
Melissa Riccobono: Well, thank you. I have been watching the conventions. I watched parts of the Republican convention and I watched parts of the Democratic convention, and it is definitely election season.
Anil Lewis: Amen to that. I'm glad that you're looking at both. I think that more and more people should be informed about the choices that we're having to make. So it's important that you hear both sides.
Melissa Riccobono: Oh, I definitely agree with you there. I never thought I would be, because I always tell people I hate politics, and I agree, I do. There are many things about politics I really, truly do not like with any fiber of my being. At the same time, I've become quite the person I feel like my dad, [laughter] where I have to be informed, at least, though my political views are different from my dad, but the desire to be informed, the desire to know what my candidate or the different candidates are saying and watching the debates and things, that's certainly something that my parents did.
And I actually was able to go into the voting booth with my parents when I was very, very little way back at the time where you actually had to crank this curtain closed, and you had to actually, there were these levers that you got to pull, and then there was the little stylus thing that they used to punch instead.
But I went voting with my parents from a very young age and always knew that it was going to be my duty someday to vote. And my dad took me when I turned eighteen to our first primary election after that. I was so mad I missed the presidential election by less than a month. I turned eighteen less than a month after it.
And I was very, very annoyed by this. But I was able to vote in my first primary election. And then eventually in 2008, that was my first time actually voting completely independently because we had the machines in Maryland. And I will never forget standing with our daughter Cynthia on my back in a backpack. She actually fell asleep while I was casting my ballot.
Anil Lewis: Already apathetic about the whole process. [Laughter]
Melissa Riccobono: No, no. She's very political. It's actually very funny. You ask her, she will tell you all about her political views, which is really cool to see. But anyway, that was the first time that I was able to cast a truly independent ballot, which is really cool. And that's really our right as Americans, and that's what we're talking about today on the podcast.
Anil Lewis: And hopefully everyone will feel amazing.
Melissa Riccobono: What have been your experiences with voting, Anil?
Anil Lewis: Well, I had similar. Of course I could see early on to vote. And I remember the first time I had to vote as a blind person, I had to take my mommy to the poll with me, which was really dismissive. So you can believe that when we finally got accessible voting, it was such an empowering experience. I'll never forget the time I was able to actually go vote independently again.
It was very empowering. Not to say I didn't trust my mom, but I'm just saying. But then I recognized the power of the vote. I also made sure my son, Amari, went to the polls with me when he was young. Of course, my polling place was his elementary school, so it was really double duty. But he's very…
Melissa Riccobono: That's easy then.
Anil Lewis: Yeah, he's very active, at least in knowing politics and understanding the importance of understanding the different perspectives and really being educated in the whole process. So that I'm optimistic about. Whether he goes to vote every time he has the opportunity to is questionable.
But he's definitely voting in November as I think everybody is, and hopefully through this podcast, everybody else will feel equally amazing to the degree that they want to go out and cast a vote. And part of what we're talking about here is the struggle that we as blind people have had toward creating accessible voting experiences, the responsibility of blind people in that voting process, and the different options that we have now and hopefully that are emerging that allow us to do this more independently.
Melissa Riccobono: Definitely. And what the National Federation of the Blind has done for years to try to secure and continue to make sure that the rights that we have fought hard to win are being respected. So we have some panelists with us. It's not just going to be me and Anil talking today. We have some great people to do the heavy work.
Anil Lewis: Thank goodness.
Melissa Riccobono: Thank goodness. Exactly. [Laughter] They're doing the hard work.
Anil Lewis: Let's introduce them.
Melissa Riccobono: All right, so we have-
Anil Lewis: Well, let me introduce this one person, if you don't mind. I just-
Melissa Riccobono: Oh, you introduce the one person. Okay.
Anil Lewis: Just one person I definitely would like to introduce because I met this gentleman when he was serving as a summer intern here at the National Center for the Blind. He's been a phenomenal member of the organization, truly committed and definitely exemplifying what we as blind people need to do regarding our role and responsibilities in the voting process. Mr. Matt Langland. Hi Matt. Thanks for joining us.
Matt Langland: Yes, glad to be here.
Anil Lewis: All right, you introduce one, Melissa. You go. Go Melissa.
Melissa Riccobono: Okay, so there's a member of the National Federation of the Blind staff that's here with us, part of the J team. I don't know why it took me forever to realize that our legislative team is all Js. Jesse, John, Justin, and this person Jeff Kaloc. How are you, Jeff?
Jeff Kaloc: I'm doing well. Thank you for having me today.
Melissa Riccobono: So happy you're here. And go ahead, Anil, you introduce the other panelist.
Anil Lewis: They have another person, Lindsey, she just didn't fit in with the Js, but Lindsey is part of the advocacy and policy support team.
Melissa Riccobono: Oh, they do have Lindsey. That's true. They do have Lindsey. But that's cool because this next person we're going to introduce starts with an L, even though she's not a staff member at the NFB, she can be on this team for today.
Anil Lewis: I was going to give Matt the privilege of introducing her instead of you.
Melissa Riccobono: Oh, well why don't we do that. Go ahead, Matt, who do you have with us?
Matt Langland: Yes, we have Lydia McComas, who is the division manager of the team that I work on because now I love elections and voting so much, I have managed to turn it into somewhat of a career for myself. And now I am working as an election specialist on the voter outreach and engagement team here at Hennepin County Elections, which is located in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Hennepin County is one of the larger counties in Minnesota that comprises the city of Minneapolis and many surrounding suburbs. And so yeah, I work here at our Hennepin County Elections office and joining us also today is my great division manager, Lydia McComas.
Lydia McComas: Thanks so much, Matt, for that great introduction, and thanks Melissa and Anil for having us today.
Anil Lewis: I love the way that you found that as a great introduction when Matt was mostly talking about Matt. [Laughter] That was really wonderful.
Lydia McComas: It's team effort over here.
Anil Lewis: We taught him that as an intern. Self-promotion is something we teach. We want to make sure blind people are assertive and that kind of thing. So that's good that that's working.
Melissa Riccobono: Well, Anil, should we start with Jeff and talk a little bit about the history of where we are today? And we do have something called the Help America Vote Act. And really the point of this whole podcast is that blind Americans have just as much right as any other American to cast a secret independent ballot.
And that was really done through our Help America Vote Act with some regulations. And we still do a lot with elections today to make sure that people have those rights and to really figure out whether those rights are truly in place or where maybe people are having experiences where it's sort of falling short. So do we want to maybe turn it over to Jeff a little bit to talk about our Help America Vote Act efforts?
Jeff Kaloc: Absolutely. As Melissa mentioned, the Help America Vote Act or HAVA, as many people refer to, it was passed in 2002 as a result of the 2000 election. And with the Help America Vote Act, one of the goals of HAVA was to provide all American voters, including those who were blind or low-vision, with the opportunity to vote both privately and independently.
HAVA required by the start of the year of 2006 that all voting jurisdictions must provide at least one accessible voting machine per polling place. And they provided federal funds to these jurisdictions to make sure that that was a reality. And with HAVA, it's great that we have this opportunity to be able to vote both privately and independently, but there still can be problems that present itself at the ballot box when it comes to in-person voting.
We still have to advocate that, one, the poll machine is set up. So it's great to have these machines available with federal funds, but if it's not set up at the beginning of the election day, it kind of defeats the purpose. So it's essential that these machines are set up from the very beginning of the day and ready to be operated. Poll worker training is another obstacle that is faced when entering election day.
Many poll workers, they'll oftentimes have these machines put into the corner of the polling location and think that it's only for a person with a disability to utilize those machines, which is not the case. That being said, they're usually not well-versed in how these machines operate. So when someone does come in to use the machine, or if someone asks to use the machine, oftentimes they're going to seem dumbfounded on how the machine operates and really at a disadvantage of how they can utilize these devices.
In addition to that, if only a person with disability is coming in to use the device, it doesn't provide the secrecy of the ballot. And I'll give an example. If one blind person goes into a polling location and they use the ballot-marking device and then that ballot-marking device is not used for the rest of the election day, it's going to print a ballot that's a little bit different in size and texture than the hand-marked paper ballots.
So at the end of the day, when the poll workers are looking at the ballots, they can tell who that one individual voted for because they know that was the particular ballot that they had used. And this presents a problem with the privacy of the ballot.
Anil Lewis: And I think even beyond that, I think what's important is it's incumbent upon us to encourage more people who aren't blind to actually use those machines anyway. And there's really a benefit to doing that. I tell my sighted friends, I say, you want to use the accessible machine because not only is it accessible for blind people, it's the machine that helps prevent under-voting and over-voting, all these different things that could cause a problem with your ballot.
I know that a lot of my friends who, one, they don't want to go to digital in the first place. I'm like, well, in the old school if you had a number two pencil and you slipped, that whole thing is void because that straight mark just de-validated anything you put on that Scantron. But these machines, they're also very helpful for the average voter.
And then the other piece that you were talking about around the poll worker training on how to use the machines, they're so important. The only time I really had problems, aside from one where someone didn't know you actually had to plug the headphone jacks into the jack for it to work, but the only problem I've had is the people who are marking the card or setting up the card to go into the voting machine always end up selecting the wrong ballot.
Even though I tell them I need the talking ballot, they say, oh yeah, I know what you need. And then they'll end up choosing the low-vision ballot or something like that. And of course when you take those to the machines, they don't work. So the poll worker training on how to program those cards and set up the equipment is key.
Jeff Kaloc: Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more, Anil.
Melissa Riccobono: What do we do to ... well, actually, let's go back and make sure you don't have anything else to say, Jeff, about any of that. But then my other question is what do we do as the National Federation of the Blind to gather data, because that was part of HAVA, I believe, is collecting the data, making sure, of course you have these regulations, now you have to make sure that they're actually doing what they set out to do.
And I believe we've been collecting data for quite a long time and we still collect data. So why don't we talk a little bit about that also, and after you have anything else that you want to add to what you were saying about the ballot and voting and that type of thing?
Jeff Kaloc: Sure. So in regards to the data, we've been conducting the blind voter surveys. We've been doing this for quite some time now, where we get feedback where it allows individuals who have voted in that particular election will have this blind voter survey conducted in November for people to provide feedback of how their experience went at the polls.
And this is helpful because, as you mentioned, Melissa, collecting this data not only helps us understand where election officials need to perfect the whole system from when the voter enters the polling place until when they leave, but also where it notifies federal agencies, the United States Department of Justice, of what's going on with these different states and how they're operating.
One example I can give that's pretty recent is in Alaska this year, there were instances where they weren't providing ballot-marking devices in particular polling places. This is against federal law. Each polling place needs at least one ballot-marking device in their polling location.
So because of this, the Department of Justice was able to look into that and enforce action where they said, this is against the law. You have to provide these ballot-marking devices at each polling place. So it gives the elections officials that little swift kick that they need sometimes in order to buy these devices.
Melissa Riccobono: And then on the other flip side, if you have a great experience, then we can figure out where they're doing it right, which is also important. If you have an experience where you walked in and from start to finish, it was perfect, there was no problems, we need to hear about that too.
And so from the very, very great experiences to the mediocre to the, oh my gosh, it's horrible because they didn't even have a machine or my card never worked, or whatever else it was, it's great that we can collect this data and see the gamut. And I want to just touch on that again because we do truly need to know all of it.
We need to get a good idea of how many people are voting, of what their experiences are across the board. So if you have a great experience and you think, oh, they don't need that data, there was nothing wrong, please fill out the survey anyway. We do need that data. We need to know when things go right.
And I know that there's people like Lydia and Matt who are working really, really hard to make sure that things are going right in Minnesota, at least in Hennepin County. And so that's the kind of data that they and other people that are doing similar work across the country need to know, oh, we are doing something right. This is working out really well.
Matt Langland: And when it comes to the accessible voting machines, that's actually one of the projects I'm working on here in my position at Hennepin County and one of the things I wanted to work on when I came in. And what we're doing in our voter outreach program here that we've created is we're reaching out to populations that have high barriers to voting, which include people with disabilities.
I'm working on some other projects as well, like outreach to homeless voters and working with those organizations. And so there's other projects I'm working on. We're going into high schools, talking with young voters and reaching them. But one of my major projects is working on outreach to voters with disabilities.
And one of the things we're doing is we're taking our voting machines— we have two here in Hennepin County right now that are in use, the OmniBallot and the ExpressVote—and we are taking those out into the community to community organizations. We're going to be taking it to our national Federation of the Blind Metro chapter here in a few weeks to our September meeting.
But not only are we bringing it there, we've also brought it to a Metropolitan Center for Independent Living. We brought it to Opportunity Partners last spring, which this is an organization in the Minneapolis area, which serves people who have intellectual and developmental disabilities who might like to use the accessible voting machine.
Because the more people who see what an accessible voting machine is, they understand how it works, they like the machine, the more likely they are to ask to use it. Because I think for too long it's just been considered, oh, that's just the blind voters machine. Well, if it's thought of as more than that and a machine that people with other disabilities and really any voter, even a non-disabled voter who wants to use it for whatever reason, if they start using the machine, the more likely it is to be up and running at the polling place, the more likely people are going to use it, the better it will work and the less barriers blind people will have.
Anil Lewis: So Matt, you mentioned two machines. Are both of those machines available at each polling place or how does that work?
Matt Langland: No, the ExpressVote, which is the newer machine, and that has the different ballot size, which was mentioned earlier, we're piloting that one this year at the Hennepin County Government Center for early voting. Many of the polling locations on election day will still have the Omniballot. And the nice thing about the Omniballot, it actually does use the same ballot size as other ballots. So that is an advantage the machine has there as you would have the same ballot size.
Melissa Riccobono: Wow. I wish we had that in Maryland because we do not.
Anil Lewis: And it seems like you're going the opposite direction, that you're moving away from the machine that gives the universal ballot to a machine that gives a distinct ballot. But I guess again, if everybody's using that same machine, it really won't matter. So keep us posted on that.
Matt Langland: Yeah. Well, we actually have some laws, which I'm not going to give too much detail because I don't want to describe them incorrectly, but we passed some laws so that if there were a recount, the poll workers who worked at precinct would not have anything to do with those ballots.
And if there's less than 10 ballots in a precinct, they're combined with other precincts. These are the skinny ballots now that they would be combined with other precincts. So they'd be mixed in with more ballots. And we've put procedures in place to try to ensure that those ballots stay private and independent.
Anil Lewis: Nice.
Melissa Riccobono: Great.
Anil Lewis: So if you're doing all that work, what does Lydia do?
Melissa Riccobono: Yeah, exactly. You're doing that work. Exactly.
Anil Lewis: You're doing all that work, what's left for Lydia, I mean?
Lydia McComas: Thank you. Yeah, so I have been kind of really prioritize working with communities who face the highest barriers to voting. And that's why working with communities with disabilities is something that we've been focusing on. And that's one of Matt's main projects.
Like Matt said, that we have been working a lot with different communities who have disabilities, who might want to use these machines. So we've been working, like Matt said, with communities with intellectual and developmental disabilities. We're working with an organization this fall that works with autistic communities, people with autism who might find these machines helpful.
We've really been trying to make sure that people feel comfortable using these machines. They're available at all of our polling places. We're also putting together a survey that asks people about their experience with these machines, especially with the new machines that we're piloting at our in-person, absentee locations.
So, hopefully that survey will give us feedback to see what we need to change, what people like, what they don't like about that process. And we'll have that, it's an online survey and we'll hand it to people with business cards and the business cards have Braille and we can also email it out to folks.
So we're really excited about that. But like I said, this is a huge priority for Hennepin County elections. We want to make sure that everyone knows that they have the right to vote and they have the right to vote as autonomously as possible.
Melissa Riccobono: Wow, that's great. And I mean, I hope that there is things like this that are happening across the country because I think Hennepin County sounds like you're doing an incredible job with getting the word out and making sure that people know all of the options.
And let's just talk a minute about the machines themselves in case there's people that have never used them. These machines, and I'm trying to get confirmation from you guys, I know they can talk, but I don't think they have to talk either. I think there's some large print type ability-
Matt Langland: Yep, the screens will zoom. Yep. They will talk, there's a keypad with, we call it a Braille keypad, which has tactile buttons on it. So you use headphones and then use the keypad with buttons to navigate the ballot with the screen reader, they have a built-in screen reader on the machines. You can navigate it that way.
And that's what I prefer is to use the speech output with headphones and the keypad. And then for a low-vision user, for example, who may not want to use the speech output or not be used to that, there is a zoom feature. They can basically enlarge the ballot and you can basically have a large print ballot right there on your screen. And then it works like a touchscreen.
You can just touch the screen and select your candidate right there with the touchscreen. And then one of our machines, the ExpressVote actually has a feature where a voter could hook up a sip and puff device. And this is a device that someone would operate, I believe, with their mouth and their face for someone with motor disabilities who would have trouble using their hands and feet for motor skills. So that's another feature. They have to bring their own sip and puff device. And I have never actually seen the machine operated that way, but I know that is possible.
Lydia McComas: I'll just add that there are lots of different machines across the country. We have two in Hennepin County. There's lots of different machines in Minnesota, lots of different machines across the country. And so some of the features vary, but they do have to be accessible for people with disabilities.
So if you are curious, if listeners are curious about what machines are available in your area, at your polling place, reach out to your local election office, reach out to your Secretary of State's office. They should have a list of the machines and capabilities on their website. We do in Hennepin County or in Minnesota at mnvotes.gov.
You can see what county has which devices and that might help you figure out what to do on election day. I'll also mention it would be great if local offices like ours, like we do, do demonstrations. So if your local NFB chapter wants to host your local election office to do a demonstration of the machine, reach out, go reach out to your local election office and hopefully they have time. I know we're all very busy right now, but hopefully they have time and resources to do that.
Anil Lewis: And I love that you guys are doing that. I think that's so important. Being familiar with the machine before you get to the polling place, it's going to be key with respect to ensuring that you're actually able to use it because your knowledge of the machine is going to be key in those polls where the poll worker may not necessarily be up to speed, we'll say.
Melissa Riccobono: Definitely. And they are easy. They are designed to be easy to use. But I agree with Anil, the more you are familiar, the less surprises you'll have, especially if you've never voted before. It's really important to be able to, if you can get your hands, and it's always pretty funny when they have those demonstrations.
Often it's things like, which do you want to vote for? Dogs or cats or what ice cream flavor is your favorite? It's just, it's funny the way that they will do these different funny elections, mock elections, it always makes me smile to see what types of mock election questions are asked.
Anil Lewis: Being prepared is key. And I was curious, Jeff, maybe you know, I tell people, try to access the sample ballot before you go so that you'll know who's running, what the referendums are, what the questions are, so that you actually go in with an idea of how you want to vote. Does HAVA cover ensuring that the sample ballot information is accessible?
Jeff Kaloc: So HAVA does cover that to an extent. It varies at times based off of what the accessibility and it can also be, they could provide that information right before you enter the polling place.
Anil Lewis: Interesting.
Jeff Kaloc: So I agree, you should be able to call ahead and request some of that information and let them know that you'll be participating in the election in that particular polling place. But I think it's one of those things, that the more you prep the polling location prior to election day, the more likelihood they will have that information available before you even get to the polling place for you.
Anil Lewis: And I normally pull mine down from the web, and I know that in many instances, a lot of our Newsline, NFB-NEWSLINE® local channels also publish the sample ballot information. So individuals who are blind or print-disabled can go into their local Newsline channel and get information on what that ballot's going to look like and who the candidates are going to be and what the questions are. But being informed before you get to the polls I think is very important.
Lydia McComas: Almost all of the Secretary of State's websites, if that's who runs elections in your state, have the sample ballots on their website. So for example, in Minnesota, we should have those sample ballots up in the next couple of weeks here prior to in-person absentee voting starting on September 20th. And those are all screen reader capable.
Melissa Riccobono: Wow, absentee voting. I love how you did that. But we need to take a quick break. So after the break, we are going to talk about absentee voting, which is one more way that people can mark their ballot. So please stay tuned for the Nation's Blind podcast.
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Melissa Riccobono: You're listening to the Nation's Blind podcast. This episode is all about voting. And before the break, Lydia mentioned absentee ballots. And that is one more way we've talked a lot about how you can vote in person, but there are also ways to vote absentee. And in some states, including Maryland, we have absentee ballots that you can mark in an accessible way.
Now, unfortunately, there are still difficulties with submitting those ballots because you have to sign it, you have to submit it in an envelope that's signed in a certain place in a certain way, and so you still will need help in order to submit your ballots. You're not really able to do it independently even though you're able to market independently.
But in other states, they're now having people be able to have absentee ballots and actually vote and submit them electronically. So how do people find out whether they're able to vote absentee, whether the absentee marking is accessible, whether they can electronically submit, where would they go or what would they do to get that information?
Lydia McComas: Yeah, so I would suggest, again, your Secretary of State's office should have that information on their website or you can call up your local election office to figure out what accessible voting options are available to you and if there's an accessible absentee ballot available to you.
In Minnesota, like you mentioned in Maryland, there is the accessible absentee ballot, which can be emailed to voters who have disabilities. That ballot is emailed to the voter and then they complete it with a screen reader. But exactly like you were saying, they do have to then print out the ballot and then send it back to our office in the mail or drop it off.
So that second part of that is not as accessible as possible. I know other states allow electronic return of those absentee accessible absentee ballots. In Minnesota, and like you said, Maryland, it does have to be returned by mail. But for all of those options, I would highly suggest contacting your local election office, looking on their website or looking at your Secretary of State's website.
Melissa Riccobono: And I would think too, for figuring out how to register to vote, I think some states still, you're able to register the day of elections. Other states you are not. So I'm guessing all things election would be on that Secretary of State's website.
And I'm also guessing that there might be ways to have registration drives, and maybe that could be something that a local chapter might want to consider before elections. Maybe while they are demonstrating the machines, they could possibly have a voter registration drive at the same time.
Lydia McComas: That's a fantastic use of that time is to make sure that folks both know what the machines feel like and also make sure that they're prepped, that they're registered, that they know when and how and where they're going to vote. So I'd highly recommend local chapters do registration drives as well.
Matt Langland: Another thing to point out with the accessible absentee ballots is they're a great option for deafblind voters. I know this has been a topic that's come up more in recent years. Because the accessible voting machines, due to security concerns and those sorts of things, they do not have Braille support, where you could hook up a refreshable Braille display to an accessible voting machine, at this time.
But for a deafblind voter who would like to vote using their Braille display, if they request an absentee ballot to be emailed to them, they can just use their equipment at home, hook their refreshable Braille display up to their computer and fill out their ballot that way. Of course, as we said, they would still need help with filling out the envelope and getting that mail back in. But for a deafblind voter, I think the accessible absentee ballot right now would be a great option for them.
Melissa Riccobono: It just proves that we have more advocacy to do because to me, if somebody can hook up a sip and puff to a machine, I don't see what really the difference would be about hooking up a Braille display. I think it's just something that nobody's thought about, but that's something maybe that we can start to advocate for in our own states and maybe also on a federal level at some point when voting becomes a hot topic again or when we think we can get regulations through.
Lydia McComas: There's a question around if voters can receive a Braille ballot. This is a state by state law. Some states do produce Braille ballots. It sounds like a couple states do. We reached out to Thomas Hicks at the Election Assistance Commission to see if he knew the number of states that produce Braille ballots.
And we don't have that number as of this recording, but reach out to your local election office, see if that's something that they do. We don't do that in Minnesota, but we'll look into it for the future. But it is based on your state's law.
Anil Lewis: Yeah, I think as the polling process itself has continued to evolve, I love the potential excitement of the electronic ballot delivery and return system, which I think is active in some states maybe if I'm not mistaken, West Virginia and Colorado.
And I'm a proponent of going to that space, right? I appreciate individuals who, for whatever reason, the convenience of voting from home works for them. But I like instances of being in the community as a blind person, engaging and being seen, and letting people know that blind people are exercising our rights and responsibilities just like everyone else, I think is an important, so not only my personal responsibility as a citizen, but also as a member of the National Federation of the Blind, really setting expectations for blind people to be fully participating members of our communities.
And as you said, Melissa, that's going to require a lot of advocacy. So Jeff, can you tell us a little bit about some of our advocacy efforts moving toward that eventual goal?
Jeff Kaloc: Absolutely. And as you mentioned, Anil, West Virginia does have electronic ballot return, and so does North Carolina, I believe you stated. 13 states actually have electronic ballot return. And the benefit from electronic ballot return is it allows the user to verify their vote as well.
So when you have electronic ballot delivery and return, and as Anil and Melissa, you both were mentioning how the ballot has to be printed, the verification process isn't there when it comes to blind and low-vision voters. But with electronic ballot return, it is there because they're able to verify when that ballot is being cast, what was marked. And with that, thirteen states have this; with UOCAVA voters, it's actually close to the number’s over thirty states.
Anil Lewis: Can you explain what the UOCAVA voters are?
Jeff Kaloc: Sure. UOCAVA voters is uniformed and overseas voters, or military voters. So these could be troops that are serving overseas. They could be American citizens that are just living abroad. They could be the family members of troops that are serving overseas. So those particular voters have access in over 30 states.
Voters with disabilities, as I mentioned, is only thirteen right now. So our advocacy efforts is to increase that number, obviously, especially in those states where UOCAVA voters have that opportunity. In fact, many lawsuits were actually filed out of those thirteen states, several of them were due to lawsuits where the courts determined that if you are allowing UOCAVA voters to have electronic ballot return, then you have to allow that same concept or that same manner of voting to voters with disabilities because they found it unconstitutional that you're permitting one group to vote in this way, but not another group.
Anil Lewis: It makes sense that it's a proof of concept. I'm by no means, I'm definitely a proponent that we need to give our best to our military. They're making the ultimate sacrifice for our freedoms. But I think at a minimum, the fact that they're able to do it is a proof of concept.
So if the concern was whether it could be done and whether there's any safety or security concerns, we've overcome those barriers. So why not open it up for more people who can use that as a means to fully participate in this process to actually participate?
Jeff Kaloc: Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more on that statement, Anil. And we've been advocating in several states to enact electronic ballot return. And how we do that is we form coalitions with other disability groups, whether it's other groups, other blindness groups or other groups.
I believe before we were talking about at the polling place and in-person, people with hand dexterities that wouldn't be able to operate and using the sip and puff. Well, the same concept applies for them when it comes to electronic ballot return. So there's an incentive for them to join in a coalition with us to advocate for some of these common goals that we have to achieve electronic ballot return.
And we've been doing this in states that have UOCAVA voters voting in that way, but also states that do not. You can make the argument, if UOCAVAs have the right to vote that way, then voters with disabilities should. But the Americans with Disability Act, Title II of the Americans with Disability Act says that if you allow anyone to vote remotely, any voter that has the option to vote remotely, then voters with disabilities should have the same opportunity.
So with that being said, any state that has remote voting, which many of them do, I believe it's over forty of them do at this point, then voters with disabilities should have the same opportunity to vote both privately and independently using a remote device as well.
Anil Lewis: And the beauty of that is they're using their existing technology. So Matt mentioned earlier, deafblind users integrating a Braille display into a voting machine. Well, I have a Braille display at my home computer. If it is a deafblind person, they probably have a refreshable Braille display hooked up to the system that they will be using for this electronic ballot delivery and return system.
Same with someone like you said, with mobility dexterity, they have whatever sip and puff or whatever voice dictation manipulation of their computer already installed. So the accommodation is already built in their own home environment.
Melissa Riccobono: Yeah, absolutely. And I love what President Riccobono says about this. He often says, if astronauts from the International Space Station can cast their votes and it can be secure, then why can't people on earth do the same thing?
Anil Lewis: How about that? Wow.
Melissa Riccobono: Which always makes me laugh.
Anil Lewis: Wow. Yeah, we can keep it encrypted from the Klingons. I don't know why.
Matt Langland: Exactly.
Anil Lewis: Very nice. Yeah, I'm going to start using that. That's awesome. If they can vote from space-
Melissa Riccobono: You never heard him say that? Oh, goodness.
Anil Lewis: Wow. It's true though. Very true.
Melissa Riccobono: Yeah, no, it is true. It is true. Absolutely. So I don't know, are there other things that we haven't covered? Are there things that any of our guests would like to say to our listeners before we wrap up this wonderful episode?
Matt Langland: One thing I could say is because I know it's been mentioned a lot over the years, one of the struggles we've had as blind people is, and we kind of touched on this earlier, is with the accessible voting machines, is making sure that they are set up and ready to go at the polling place. And that's been a struggle over the years.
They'll be in the corner and not set up or not plugged in. If blind voters are still finding that to be the case, contact your local election office. It might even be your city hall, whether it's your city hall, your county election office, your Secretary of State or all of them, whoever runs elections in your state, and let them know that this is an issue and that accessible voting machines are not being prioritized because they really should be prioritized.
When election judges are trained that the machines must be set up and ready to go, and it is on the election offices at the hyper-local level as in counties and like I say, in some cases, even cities who train those election workers, who set up the machines, who store the machines, who do that work. So if voters are having trouble with that, yeah, contact your local election office and get in touch with them and express your concerns to them.
Melissa Riccobono: And that's for early voting too, which I think is really important. We didn't even cover that, but people who have disabilities should have at least one way to vote in any early voting that might be offered by your state.
Matt Langland: Yes, absolutely. Yep. Early voting would be the same as election day. Yes.
Melissa Riccobono: Same as election day. And then Jeff, just a quick question. I don't know if we're doing this this year. I know we have the survey, but in past years we've done HAVA hotlines. So if people were having direct issues with their particular polling places, they would have a place to call to try to at least report those and, or get those resolved. Are we doing that again this year for this election?
Jeff Kaloc: Yes. Yes. We are, Melissa, and we actually have that up all year during election year. So even if you're voting, if you have an early primary, if you're one of the states that has a primary in February or March or whenever it may be, we really recommend that you reach out to us with your stories, good or bad. And you could do that by either email or phone number. If you're doing it by email it's [email protected]. And if you choose to call, it's 410-659-9314, and the extension is 8683, and that actually spells out “vote” on your telephone keypad.
Anil Lewis: Look at that!
Melissa Riccobono: I see what we did there. That's amazing. Good for us. Well, I had no idea that was up all year round. That's fantastic.
Matt Langland: Could I actually throw in one last question to Jeff? So the complaints that you receive on the hotline, do those go back to local election offices? What is done with those? Where do those go?
Jeff Kaloc: Sure. So we keep those to bring up when we do have meetings with the US Department of Justice, if it's a particular Secretary of State's office. But we also want to notify, and I believe we mentioned this previously, but also allow the person that is submitting the complaint where they can submit their complaint individually as well.
So if they want to submit a complaint to the Department of Justice or to their Secretary of State's office to point them in the right direction so that they can submit that information. But we do keep that as well so that when we are having meetings with those elected officials or folks within the administration, we can have those conversations.
Lydia McComas: I want to add, in addition to contacting your local election office and contacting the NFB hotline, if you have issues, please, please fill out a HAVA complaint form if you are experiencing issues in a federal election with these materials or with accessibility at the polling place.
It's really important to fill out that complaint form so that there is a paper trail so that election admin and county attorneys can go back and make sure that that complaint is investigated and that issue is resolved. We have lots of support on the federal side from the Election Assistance Commission, which was put in place by HAVA to rectify a lot of these situations.
The Elections Assistance Commission, if there's any election officials listening out, is a great resource for you too to go and find more ways to make sure that we are administering accessible elections. So please make sure you fill out that HAVA complaint form.
Melissa Riccobono: And where would people find that?
Lydia McComas: Yeah, you can find it, I think on the Election Assistance Commission's website. You can find it likely on your Secretary of State's website. It's on the Minnesota Secretary of State's website. Some states do have their own complaint forms. So Minnesota does have our own complaint form for non-federal elections.
So if you're a Minnesota voter and you encounter issues at the polling place and it's not a federal election, please fill out that Minnesota complaint form. If we get a HAVA complaint form for non-federal elections, we will still investigate. But just know that HAVA is really just for federal elections and you may have a different state form for other elections.
Anil Lewis: Well, this has been a lot to take in. I want to thank Jeff for being a good shepherd for all of the work that the NFB continues to do to ensure that blind people have their independent right to cast our ballot. Lydia, thank you for creating a space that is responsive to the needs of voters with disabilities and definitely engaging or allowing Matt to engage the way he does.
And Matt, thank you for being on the front line. And I think that more and more blind people should get more active in this process and even be poll workers during election day. I think that our presence there has a lot of win-win. So we're hoping that people benefited from the information shared on the podcast. Love to hear your stories.
Any advice that you have on how we can make the process better would be greatly appreciated. But for whatever, by whatever means, please get registered and vote. That's the big thing.
Melissa Riccobono: So it sounds like secretaries of state or local election commissions are really the places where you would go to find the most up-to-date resources, obviously, for your own state. But I do think that the NFB also has a web page that we update with different tools and things. Is that right?
Jeff Kaloc: That's correct, Melissa. If you go to nfb.org/vote, we have a web page that will provide you with the secretary of states’ web pages, as you mentioned. It'll provide you with the information that I was speaking about previously where you could send your stories and the voting hotline as well.
They'll also have videos of the ballot-marking devices. And when we were speaking earlier about contacting your particular polling place or your Secretary of State's office to figure out what kind of ballot-marking device they'll be using at your particular polling place, we have examples and YouTube videos of how those devices operate and all the features that are included with those devices.
So it is a great opportunity if you're not familiar, if this is your first time voting, or even if this is your seventieth time voting, to go to that page and look at what devices will be used and get familiar with them so that when you enter the polling place, you understand how the device works.
Melissa Riccobono: And that's wonderful because if you can't, for some reason, make it to a chapter meeting where they're being demonstrated or your chapter can't get somebody to come because we are getting to election crunch time, at least you'd have that video, at least you'd have that information.
And I would guess that that would also have information about how it correctly needs to be set up so that it will talk or it will zoom. So that's wonderful. I had no idea that we had that available. And I think we also have a poll workers’ toolkit there, which is also really good information.
And I love when blind people are poll workers. I know a few of them, but even for sighted poll workers, I think it talks about what you can do to help make the voting experience as good as possible for anybody with disabilities and for people that are blind or who have low vision.
Jeff Kaloc: Absolutely. And it gives them also what they can expect as well. In a lot of these instances when it comes to the ballot-marking devices, most voters, even the voters that have vision, they want to get to the fastest line. So it's actually an incentive for these poll workers to utilize these machines to get the lines down because they're going to be used, if it's available and up and running, not only by individuals with disabilities, but also with individuals without disabilities.
So the poll worker training will give them a guide of how the ballot-marking devices, what's the significance of them, and also if a blind voter enters the polling place, what to expect.
Melissa Riccobono: Well, that's great.
Anil Lewis: Again, it's been a whole lot of information shared on this podcast, and I hope it's not too overwhelming. Not to oversimplify things, we just need you guys to get registered and to vote. And until next time, remember, you can live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono: Blindness is not what holds you back.
Announcer: We'd love your feedback! Email [email protected] or call 410-659-9314, extension 2444.