Transcript of Nation's Blind Podcast Episode: Meet the National Organization of Blind Black Leaders

Intro with music:
Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast, presented by the National Federation of the Blind, the transformative membership and advocacy organization of blind Americans. Live the life you want.

Melissa Riccobono:
Hello, and welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast. I'm Melissa Riccobono and I'm here with...

Anil Lewis:
Anil Lewis. And I love the Nation's Blind Podcast, and hopefully our listeners do, too.

Melissa Riccobono:
I love our listeners.

Anil Lewis:
Looking forward to another interesting topic today. I think that one of the things that's most amazing to me when I think about the National Federation of the Blind is how diverse we are in so many aspects of blindness and people participating actively in society. We have a host of groups and divisions that highlight all the various intersections between blindness and the rest of the world.

Melissa Riccobono:
Well, and sometimes those are the places where people begin their Federation journey. I know I began in the Wisconsin Association of Blind Students and then went into the National Association of Blind Students, NABS, before I even went to my first convention. Then when I was in my first convention, the thing that really brought me in and made me super excited was our human services division because I wanted to be a psychologist and I knew I could, but I didn't know how I would, and just being in a room with other people who were doing that job was so meaningful to me and just made me so excited and made me know that the National Federation of the Blind, even more than I knew before, was truly the place for me.

Anil Lewis:
Yeah. I agree. The real power of that is, like you said, you're in a room of individuals with similar interests, but also that have acquired various strategies to deal with the barriers that we as blind people face in trying to reach those goals. So, sharing those common strategies, commiserating about those problems, but also remaining to be positive and supportive of one another throughout those challenges that we face.

Melissa Riccobono:
Right? Then also educating the larger Federation, sometimes, about the things that that particular group faces, students educating us, parents educating us. There's so much education that goes on. Of course, the other nice thing about our divisions is they're not just stagnant. We don't just have a division forever and leave it alone. They grow; they change. Sometimes they change to a group, which is just as powerful, just a little bit of a different structure.
But we also get new divisions from time to time, and we're so excited today to welcome someone who has started a brand new division just at convention time, I believe. Is that right, from what you understand, Anil?

Anil Lewis:
Well, I think two things before we introduce our distinguished guest. One is the other benefit of the divisions is not just the internal education, but also the way that divisions can really educate the external world. You talked about you as a professional in counseling, and we recognize that some of the biggest barriers that blind people face is the ignorance of people in those professional spaces. So, with the division around human services, then they can also educate those external entities that are responsible for creating opportunities.
Then the other piece, giving this young man his due, I think that he would be the first to say that he didn't do it on his own. So, I agree with you spearheading the development of this division does go to the credit of Shawn Callaway, who we're blessed to have as our guest this day on the Nation's Blind Podcast. He's also a national board member and also the president of our NFB of the District of Columbia. Shawn, welcome to the Nation's Blind podcast.

Shawn Callaway:
Oh, man. It is an honor and a pleasure to be with you and Melissa. I respect both of you immensely and the work you've done within the organization and the blind community. So, when I say that it's a honor, I really do mean it. So thank you for having me.

Anil Lewis:
Very nice.

Melissa Riccobono:
Thank you for being here. You, I think, have some radio experience, if I'm not wrong. So, this is old hat for you.

Shawn Callaway:
Oh, pretty much. Yeah. I've been doing radio for about six or seven years now, a show called Open Our Eyes, which focuses on disability and inclusion. So, radio and podcasts are old hat to me, but I love it and I love coming on other people's shows instead of me doing the interviewing,

Anil Lewis:
I had forgotten that you had me as a guest on your show. So, I guess we're finally reciprocating. So, good. Now I'm in the control seat, so I can get to bounce you around a little bit. (Laughter)

Shawn Callaway:
Amen. Well, I'm ready. I'm ready.

Anil Lewis:
I know you are. We've already kind of set the tone in the intro talking about the makeup of the National Federation of the Blind and the fact that we have divisions within the organization. With you, we haven't even talked about, it's the National Organization of Blind Black leaders within the National Federation of the Blind. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about how it started?

Shawn Callaway:
Oh, man, Anil. It started back in 2018. Like any other organizational business, what have you, is it always starts with a idea or someone's sort of comment or quote. We were in Orlando, Florida in 2018. Myself and Dr. Rosy Carranza, we were leading a DEI committee meeting. During this committee meeting, we asked a question on what people think about the needs of the organization in regards to diversity. A woman named Florence Myers McSwine from Indiana stood up and said, "I love the Federation. I love coming to national conventions. I just love meeting all kinds of blind people." But she said, "One thing I don't do a lot is meet blind Black women like myself because we have a sort of shared experience, and I just want to meet other blind Black women who are just like me." She said, "That's no disrespect to the many other people I meet, but you always want to meet someone who's sharing the same experiences as yourself."
So, with that comment by Florence, we started the Black Leaders Serving for Advancement, which our common goal and the same goal as for our division, is really to come together in the spirit of commonality, but to recruit and to retain the members that we have within the Federation who are African American. So, that's how it all got started.
Since then, Anil, since 2018, we've done a whole lot, from programming to developing sort of specialized groups for people to really feel welcome and at home within this particular division or at the time, of course, group. So that's how it kind of all got started back in 2018.

Melissa Riccobono:
Wow. Pre-pandemic.

Shawn Callaway:
Yep. Indeed.

Anil Lewis:
So beyond what you were talking about there, I get creating a space for Black people within the organization to get together. What is the true purpose? Is it just an opportunity for the Black members of the NFP to socialize?

Shawn Callaway:
No, no, no. It goes beyond socialization, definitely. For example, a lot of our members don't have sort of a mentor. One of our main purposes is to sort of mentor young African American members or even new members into the organization so they can have that sort of comfort in knowing that they're, again, commonality. They can talk to someone who's sharing that same experience.
Let me give you the prime example. Many African Americans, and I'm sure a lot of people as well across the country in different places of worship have issues, but especially in the Black church. Quite often, individuals go to these churches and they're marginalized, extremely marginalized. They don't have anyone to reach out to say, "I'm being marginalized in my place of worship." So basically for myself, because I worship in a Baptist church as well, they can come to me and we can have this discussion on how you have this approach on letting your church leadership know that we are blind and we have a place within the church home.
Again, Anil, it's not about just getting together, but it's about sort of teaching, building leaders, teaching them the nuances about the organization itself because we put the organization first. For example, another example, starting off on our meetings that we have, we do the NFB Pledge, recite the one-Minute message. We know that blindness is what brought us together. So, we will never put ourselves in a position, Melissa and Anil, to divide ourselves from the organization because, keep in mind, it was the organization that brought us together. Of course, many of you know, and who are listening, how much I love the Federation. There's no way I would be someone who would lead such a organization to keep us away from everyone. We want to still be a part of the organization. We'll never divide ourselves from the organization, enhancing our organization, again, through recruitment, retaining, and also teaching.

Anil Lewis:
I appreciate you answering the question. It really was kind of self-serving because my own personal experience can really speak to the truth of why that's a need. I count, as significant mentors in my life, Dr. Marc Maurer, Allen Harris, and any number, and these, for the sake of our listeners, are white members of our organization. Mark Riccobono and I grew up in the organization together.
But I'll tell you, it really would not have been possible for me to grow in leadership in this organization if I didn't develop the relationship that I had with Sam Gleese. He was the president of the Mississippi Affiliate, a Black Minister out of Mississippi. And of course, Ron Brown was crucial in my development, a Black member, president of the Indiana Affiliate at the time, national board members both. But that happened kind of organically, just based on my interaction with the organization.
Unfortunately, I've seen so many other members who didn't have the luck of the draw that way. What happens is being a subset of society, many of our Black members deal with the societal misconceptions around the race that lead to them not really getting to know what the NFB is about. So, I really love the fact that you talked about not only the mentoring and the training up and the shared experiences, but also focused in on the fact that it is about building NFB. I attend as many of the meetings as I possibly can. I love that it starts with the NFB pledge, and I love that you yourself, Richard, Suzanne and the others are always talking about building membership and building leaders and getting people committed to the blind movement.

Shawn Callaway:
I thank you for that, Anil. I think, and I'm going to mention those things definitely before we conclude because, again, as you stated at the beginning, it's not a one-man show. But one of the things I'll never forget, and you know this story. Back in 2011, I was at the home of Don Galloway. Don had said, "You should consider running for the president of the DC affiliate." And he said, "Well, if you decide to do this, you make sure you call Anil Lewis." So, I had that fast-track to you to guide me and provide me mentorship, but a lot of these young folks within the organizations don't have that. That's what we kind of wanted as well so they don't have to sort of wait for somebody to tell them to be mentored; they can have mentors on-the-spot through the National Organization of Blind Black Leaders.
It's a beautiful thing, and I truly enjoy the mentorship of it. I truly, truly enjoy it. I've mentored some wonderful young leaders, I'll call them out, like Chris Crawley in South Carolina, Qualik Ford in Maryland, Derique Simons back in South Carolina as well. So just working with these young folks, it has been a joy and a pleasure. So yeah, I truly appreciate that comment, Anil.

Melissa Riccobono:
I think it helps, too, of course, we're all blind people, right? So let me just say the elephant in the room. Sometimes Black or white, brown, I don't care in the sense that it doesn't matter to me. But as far as getting mentors and things like that, I think it's great if a Black member says, "Oh, these people are in the Black Leaders, they must be a little bit more like me." I think that's really important.
What I also really appreciate as a blind white woman is the education that you do. I love that you guys are always out there on our email list telling us what you're doing, inviting us to be a part of your meetings, your Black History Month education, whatever it is that you're doing because as a white woman, I don't always think about... I think about the intersectionality between myself as a woman and as a blind woman, but I didn't always understand or know very much. I grew up in a very middle class white community.
So, just the Black experience was much more something I learned at school and thought, "Oh, it must be horrible for those people." But of course, it was all sighted people I was learning about. Of course it was those people, and now it's friends of mine that I care about first because they're friends, and now have more of an appreciation of, "Oh, wow, they're dealing with this because they're blind. They're dealing with this because of their race. How can I be a better ally?" I think one of the ways to be a better ally is just to educate myself and just to hear other people's stories.

Shawn Callaway:
Melissa, thank you for bringing that up because, yeah, we put on our listservs especially about some of the programming that we have throughout the year, and a lot of people who are not of color have attended, and they have participated and just been so welcoming to what we're trying to do and have an understanding of what we're trying to do. It has been a wonderful educational tool for everyone. I've actually had conversations with folks after some of our events and meetings and things of that nature just to have that discussion. So, I really appreciate your transparency and really discussing that.
That's the thing, again, that's the misconception about the division and not being welcoming and trying to divide us as an organization. That's not the case at all. We are very welcoming to everyone who wants to participate with us. That's the beauty of National Organization of Blind Black Leaders is that we're very inclusive and we want to teach and we want people to learn about our experiences and struggles.
Matter of fact, let me just bring this up real quick, Melissa. Few months ago, we had on a woman named Dr. Monique Coleman. Dr. Coleman did a research study on African American women and having their children go through sort of the IEP process and the educational process in public schools in New Jersey. That was a eyeopener for myself because I have a sighted child, so I don't know about the IEP process for a child. So, she was very enlightening in teaching everyone about the struggles and the ups and downs of a Black mother who has a child in the IEP process in the New Jersey school system. Those are just some of the things we try to bring awareness about.

Anil Lewis:
I love the fact that Melissa was vulnerable enough to talk about the fact that it's what she doesn't know is what's so important about this, and focusing on education because even in the example that you gave, a lot of people don't recognize that there are going to be different challenges for a young Black blind student in the school systems because it's not their lived experience. But I love the fact that the National Organization of Blind Black Leaders creates that space where I've seen Black, white, otherwise, all there learning. So there are some individuals that may think this is unnecessary, but I think that they're probably just not aware that there are unique differences, different barriers and hurdles that have to be jumped or overcome when you have these various characteristics. I think the case in point is Melissa talking about her intersectionality as a woman. I don't know the unique challenges that women face in growing in this organization, but when we create a space to have these relationships and talk to people about it, we can learn more and come to overcome them.
The other piece I really like that you're talking about is the young people that we're mentoring, it's motivating for me when I can interact with these young Black men, especially because that's my lived experience, and get them to understand things so that they don't have to deal with the same struggles that I had. It makes me feel good. It makes my life have purpose.
I'll give a quick example, and hopefully this will make sense to people. Long before I was blind, I was mentoring young Black youth in the inner city because that's where I grew up. I would go to them and I would speak in the vernacular because I grew up in the hood and I spoke to them in that way because that's the way I'd be accepted. If I came in speaking proper English, then they would've thought that I was being “saditty” or stuck up. So, I spoke to them in the vernacular, but I also let them know that if they wanted to go to work in corporate America, then they would need to learn how to speak proper English, not in a way that made their, I'll call it native language, inferior. Because I definitely think vernacular has swagger to it. It has a style and a sense. So, I never want them to feel like they were lesser because they spoke that way. So, I framed it in a way to let them understand that now you're multilingual. If you go to France, you're going to be much better off if you speak French.
So, me being able to talk to them through my lived experience and understanding made a significant difference in their lives beyond anyone else who would've come to talk to them about the same thing.

Shawn Callaway:
Yes, indeed. That's extremely important. And Anil, so I crossed 50 last year, and [inaudible].

Anil Lewis:
Oh, you still a baby.

Shawn Callaway:
I mean, I always felt like I was a mentor. Now, I just have this renewed energy in regards to just being even a bigger and a better mentor, you know when you reach that status. So that's what it's all about, Anil. That's what we're all about. It's just sort of giving back and sharing those experiences to empower folks.

Melissa Riccobono:
I know the mentoring that I have done, I never know who gets more out of a relationship sometimes because you learn so much being a mentor. Again, just like you were sort of saying, I think there are some things that are very similar to when you were growing up. I think there's probably things that are different, too. So, you learn. That's just the beauty of it. You learn things from the people that you're a mentor for and you can still mentor them through that. But you're also learning and really staying abreast of the things that are needed to be discussed. I'm sure that there have been kind of a-ha moments of, "Oh, we should really have a topic for one of our meetings about that. That's a really good idea."

Shawn Callaway:
Oh, no question. No question. I'll never forget mentoring a person who was actually not of color, and young man and I had a experience of having our children at the same time. He was much younger than I. Of course, I had my child pretty late. But just learning from him about his experience as a blind parent, and I'm mentoring him, but he's teaching me. So, that really speaks to your point you just made, Melissa.

Anil Lewis:
Yeah. But I want to step up and save your marriage right now because you didn't have that child; your wife did. [inaudible]

Shawn Callaway:
I apologize. I apologize. I apologize.

Anil Lewis:
I know you love her like a princess, though. The love that you share for your daughter on Facebook and just conversations. That's exemplary. I appreciate that.
I think that the other piece that's also very important is if we don't do this, I think that's a question. If we don't do it, because a lot of people are really still trying to understand it. But if we don't, we lose some of that talent. And as the [inaudible] organization, National Federation of the Blind, we don't have the luxury of not being able to tap into the talent of every blind person who feels like they want to be part of this movement. I think that what we're doing here taps into a relatively disenfranchised population of membership. I've already seen some really good impacts from those interactions and the discussions and the presentations and the meetings. The thing that's really interesting to me... I hope Debbie forgives me, but I know that the Maryland Affiliate had a Black history trivia night and [inaudible] sitting there, but Debbie Brown out of the Sligo Creek chapter, she was knocking it out of the park. Debbie, the white woman member of the Sligo Creek chapter. But I mean, she knew her Black history. And I think that's the goal.
We're trying to get to a place where, as Melissa was saying, we can educate one another. The more knowledge we have, the better we're able to work together and the better we're able to serve humanity. I think that really speaks to the whole mission of the National Federation of the Blind. If we work aggressively and collectively to educate people about blindness, then we have a better opportunity to really fully participate. If we're going to do that in the context of blindness, then we have to provide as much support to the various individuals with varying intersectionalities within the organization to make sure that message goes forward.

Melissa Riccobono:
Well, and we're stronger together, right?

Anil Lewis:
There you go.

Melissa Riccobono:
Like you said, Anil, we need everybody. We say that all the time. And it is so true. If we don't grow our own, nobody else is going to do it.

Shawn Callaway:
Yep, agreed. Agreed. It's a beautiful thing. That's why I love this organization and the people, because of the love amongst everyone in the diverse populations. I've never personally, for myself, and I can't speak for everyone's experience, but I've had some wonderful experiences with everyone. My mentors have not only been people of color, but not of color as well. I always think of the Cathy Jacksons and the Scott LaBarres, late Scott LaBarre and Jeannie Massay, and just individuals like that who helped me not only be a better Federationist, but a better person, a better blind person. So, it's the beautiful thing. And that's what we want to put forth to our membership as well, our young African American members especially that, "Hey, we're here." You know what I mean? We're here and we will help you in this journey because, again, we know that you're going to take what you learned from this organization and bring awareness to your community. So, that's the thing we want to press upon as well. Let's call it “noble.” Let's call it noble. That’s what I say. National Organization of...

Anil Lewis:
[inaudible].

Shawn Callaway:
... Blind Black leaders, NOBBL.

Anil Lewis:
That's nice. I love that. I love that. Then the two things I really want to... There's such a rich history already within this organization. I forget which year, but President Riccobono did a banquet speech, and he talked about some of the Black leaders historically within the organization. I have to admit a lot of it I did not know. He did it in a way that was so appropriate, right? Because he talked about the parallel struggles that we had with racism within the blindness movement and how we dealt with it, but did it in a way that showed that it was Black leaders within the organization that continued to move forward within this organization in concert with the rest of the membership that allowed us to continue to grow as an organization. I wish I would've done my research and gotten that particular banquet speech. Maybe we can put it in the footnotes.

Melissa Riccobono:
I bet we can put it in the show notes. Yeah.

Anil Lewis:
I think that that's really what we're doing here, making sure that that messaging continues to be present so that people can gain confidence and pride, whatever you want to call it, in their lived experience and in the characteristics that they distribute as members of this organization.

Shawn Callaway:
Yes, indeed. That banquet speech, I believe, was in 2021. I've been moved by many speeches by both President Riccobono and Dr. Maurer, but that one right there gave me chills. It was a history lesson within about 15-20 minutes. I mean, it was unbelievable that. Like you, Anil, there were certain things I did not know. So, I learned a ton from that. And shout out to President Riccobono, Mark Riccobono. Quite honestly, Melissa, I love when you say, "Look, let's be real. The elephant in the room." I knew he was going to take some hits for this in regards to the criticism of what was out there. But he stood behind us, man, and supported us through this whole effort. So I really got a shout-out, Mark Riccobono for his support of this division.

Anil Lewis:
Yeah. He continues to be fearless in so many issues that we face as an organization. Absolutely, I cosign on that all day.
What are some of the changes? What's in the future for NOBBL?

Shawn Callaway:
What's in the future for NOBBL? Well, we have several things going on in there. Of course, we always have our monthly meetings with different presenters from the community itself. But we have several working groups. We have a blind Black women's group, a blind Black seniors' group, a blind Black leaders' group. We have a mentoring outreach group. Also, we have a few committees, HBCU committee, which our plans are to reach out to our HBCUs in regards to bringing awareness.

Anil Lewis:
And for your listeners, HBCU is historically Black colleges and universities.

Shawn Callaway:
Yes. I'm sorry for the acronym, but yes. HBCU. So, yep. We have a health and wellness component, which we discuss health within the blind Black community. Also, we have our communications team, again, to reach out to the broader community to really share what we are doing as a organization in the National Federation of the Blind. So, we got a lot of things just going on in.
It's all about bringing awareness about the blindness community, especially in the African American community. So that's our thing, Anil. We want to teach our community because our community really doesn't know about blindness, in a sense. People always think because you're Black, Black people going to treat you the same, in a sense. But no, we get marginalized by our own people because they have no understanding about blindness and our capability as blind people. So, we definitely want to bring awareness to our communities in which we come from. So, some of those groups that I mentioned and the committees that I mentioned is sort of established to help with that effort of bringing awareness about the blind Black community. We find our own communities because that's where we kind of dwell, in a sense.

Melissa Riccobono:
Wonderful. Well, I, for one, cannot wait to see what NOBBL does in the future. I think your future is bright. You are certainly a vibrant division. If people want to join the NOBBL, do you guys have your own website? Can they get ahold of you? What would be the best way for them to get involved?

Shawn Callaway:
Great, great question. I'm working with Dave Andrews with our listserv because we had to, of course, change names and all that other stuff. But for right now, if you want to be a part of the National Organization of Blind Black Leaders, you can contact me via email at Callaway, C-A-L-L-A-W-A-Y dot Shawn, S-H-A-W-N at gmail.com. Before we conclude, I definitely want to shout out some of the members who are very responsible, extremely responsible for this effort of bringing NOBBL to the forefront. That'll be Richard Payne, Denise Avant, Suzanne Turner, Denise Brown, Lashawna Fant, Candice Chapman, Dr. Carolyn Peters, and Lee Martin. So, it's a beautiful thing. If you want to reach out to me, again, [email protected].

Melissa Riccobono:
Thank you so much. That is great. Anything else, Anil, that you want to know from Shawn?

Anil Lewis:
I think I know all I want to know. I'm looking forward to learning more, though, as we move forward. Of course, I'm pledging my help in whatever way I can.

Shawn Callaway:
I appreciate it, Anil. Anil and Melissa, I really appreciate this opportunity. By the way, before we go, I do want to say, Anil, it has been a pleasure to be introduced as Shawn Callaway on this podcast because when I was at the Washington Seminar, I was walking around and talking to people, and I can't tell you how many times they would stop and say, "Hey, Anil!" [inaudible]

Anil Lewis:
That's mutual. That's mutual. I get [inaudible] I get Ron. I get Roland. Yeah. So that's real.

Shawn Callaway:
Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

Anil Lewis:
I appreciate it, man. But just to show that this will probably get on the cutting room floor, but Jessica Beecham has also been called Anil, and most recent...

Shawn Callaway:
Oh, wow.

Anil Lewis:
... Mark Riccobono has been called Anil. So, some of our members aren't as discriminating as others. They're just...

Shawn Callaway:
I got you.

Anil Lewis:
Yeah.

Shawn Callaway:
I got you. (Laughter)

Anil Lewis:
I don't think I compare to any and all of the above. I still count it as an honor. I have been honored to have you here on the podcast, really good, healthy discussion. I'm hoping that we, through the work that you and all of the members of NOBBL are conducting, that we continue to build the National Federation of the Blind.

Shawn Callaway:
Thank you. Melissa and Anil, once again, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Melissa Riccobono:
Thank you for being here.

Voiceover with background music:
Each year, the National Federation of the Blind offers blind college and graduate students in the fifty states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico, the opportunity to win one of thirty scholarships worth $8,000 each. Applications for the 2023 National Federation of the Blind Scholarship class are being accepted now. Applicants must be legally blind in both eyes, must be eighteen years of age by July 1st, 2023, must be pursuing or planning to pursue a full-time post-secondary course of study in a degree program at a US institution in the fall of 2023, and must participate in-person in the entire NFB National Convention being held July 1st-6th in Houston, Texas, and in all of its scheduled scholarship program activities. Finalists will receive assistance to attend the National Convention. To learn more and to start your online application, visit nfb.org/scholarships. The entire online application must be completed and submitted by March 31st, 2023. Good luck.

Anil Lewis:
Well, Melissa, there's another one for the books. Really good dialogue. Really excited about the work that the National Organization of Blind Black Leaders will be able to do on behalf of the National Federation of the Blind. What were your thoughts?

Melissa Riccobono:
I love this new division, and I loved speaking with Shawn Callaway because you can just tell he gives his all to whatever he's associated with, whether it be being a dad to his daughter, his radio show, giving Krispy Kreme donuts at the Washington Seminar, or NOBBL, Shawn is just a fantastic, vibrant guy who sees work that has to be done and doesn't shy away from doing it.
I just really appreciated being a part of the interview and really appreciated, quite honestly, Anil, just listening to you and Shawn talk as two guys who happen to be Black and who happen to be blind. And that was a really great thing.
I hope that people will share this. We want people to understand our divisions. We always want you to share our podcast, but particularly this one. I think there has been some misunderstanding about what this new division is for. So, if you're listening to this and you had questions and your questions have been answered, please share it with others because if you had questions, probably other people do, too.

Anil Lewis:
Yeah, agreed. I can be reflective on some of this, too, because I realize that some of the uncomfortableness of the conversation is when it's a topic that you can't personally relate to through your lived experience. That's when you should lean in. When you're really not understanding, then try to understand. Don't just default to a place where you don't recognize the value of it without really trying to understand it first. I think that this conversation was helpful. Hopefully, it was helpful for a lot of individuals, to get them to a place where they can understand a little bit better.
But we do want people to talk about this and other episodes of The Nation's Blind Podcast. It's only through feedback from all of our listeners, the good, the bad, the ugly. Hopefully it's more good than bad or ugly. Any potential topics that you think may be helpful for us to dive down in because I like the discussions that we have that are meaningful like this. I also like the discussions that we have that are just pure fun. But we'd like to do it in a way that's responsive to what our listeners want, not just what Anil and Melissa or Chris wants us to do. So, please feel free to reach out to us through all those social media avenues that you have to contact the National Federation of the Blind.

Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah. @NFB_Voice on Twitter, and on Facebook you can search for National Federation of Blind. I think we're on Instagram and TikTok, too. I don't know as much about how to find us there, but I'm sure if you search for National Federation of the Blind, you'll be able to get a good idea of where we are, and you can leave us feedback in any of those ways. We really do appreciate you listening to this podcast. We're always happy to bring it to you. But again, without you, there'd be no one to bring it to. So, thank you very much for your listening and for your support.

Anil Lewis:
But we still have fun because Melissa and I enjoy one another, but we want you guys to have fun as well. So, until then, remember, you can live the life you want.

Melissa Riccobono:
Blindness is not what holds you back.

Outro with music:
We'd love your feedback. Email [email protected], or call 410-659-9314, extension 2444.