Welcome to the twenty-fifth episode of Access On, the National Federation of the Blind's Technology podcast.
Episode
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Timestamps
The show is segmented by chapter, making it easy to move between segments of the podcast if you have an app or player that supports chapters. Below is what's on the show this week, and when you can hear it.
- Global Accessibility Awareness Day 0:00
- Join us for our indoor wayfinding boutique 1:52
- A guide to Google Meet 3:01
- Thoughts on earbuds 20:36
- Problem with Microsoft Copilot 31:50
- Email clients and password managers 35:22
- Another idea for a navigational/sensory substitution device 39:06
- I want the iOS Home Screen but get the App Library instead 43:27
- Poor experience with Microsoft Disability Answer Desk 45:24
- Tips for accommodating DeafBlind people in online meetings 48:35
- Using Winlink and Airmail 51:15
- YouTube TV 52:19
- Need accessible personal finance software 53:23
- Tech tip, an accessible dishwasher 55:51
- Closing and contact info 57:20.856
Transcript
Recording: Live the life you want. Access On.
Jonathan Mosen: Welcome to Access On, the technology podcast of the National Federation of the Blind. On the show this week. How to host and participate in online meetings, using the Google Meet platform. We hear a couple of listener questions about working with Microsoft's Copilot on the PC. Some customers are experiencing a serious bug with Apple's AirPods 4, with active noise cancellation. And in our Tech Tip, a listener discusses using a smartphone for full accessible control of a dishwasher.
It's Jonathan Mosen of the Jernigan Institute in Baltimore, Maryland, welcoming you to Episode 25 of the podcast. Wow. It is May the 14th, as we publish this, if you're listening to it nice and early. And there are a couple of things to note about tomorrow, May the 15th. It is Global Accessibility Awareness Day.
We do expect some announcements from some of the big tech companies, particularly Apple, who tend now to give us a little bit of a sneak peek into what might be coming, accessibility wise, in the next version of iOS. So this is quite interesting, because the WWDC, the Worldwide Developers Conference, isn't until next month.
So it is people with disabilities who get that little bit of a sneak peek into iOS 19, before anyone else. So we look forward to that. Over on the Nation's Blind Podcast, we have a special edition of the podcast for Global Accessibility Awareness Day.
And on the evening of May the 15th, President Riccobono will be doing a presidential release live, and that will also cover Global Accessibility Awareness Day. So a few things to be aware of if you're listening to this in time for that. Now let's look at our next boutique, and this is on indoor wayfinding technology. It's going to be happening on May 27th, from two o'clock until 3:30 Eastern Time, and it's happening via Zoom.
The indoor navigation technology field has expanded greatly in recent years. With the advancement of beacon, laser mapping and smartphone technology, finding your way around a large and complex indoor space, like an airport or office building, as a blind person, has become much easier. So in this boutique, we're going to be covering the different types of indoor navigation, smartphone applications, and the future of indoor navigation.
Now you can register for the indoor navigation software boutique today. Just go to nfb.org/sina, that's nfb.org/sina, and find the link for Events and Training, and you'll be able to register there. We will of course bring you highlights of that boutique, right here on Access On, but there's nothing like actually attending it, because that way you can ask questions and have input into the discussion. So we look forward to seeing you there.
Let's return to the series that we've been running on Accessible Meetings, and how to participate to the max with the common platforms that are used around the place. Today we are focusing on Google Meet, and to talk about that, it's Karl Belanger, from our CENA team.
Karl Belanger: Google Meet is Google's answer to the online meeting space, and they have now implemented a video calling as well. They have merged what used to be their Google Duo app into a Google Meet. And I'll mention that briefly once I get into the demonstration. Google Meet, on the desktop, is exclusively controlled through the web browser. They have the ability to install as, what they call a web app, which I have done. But that essentially just runs in a dedicated Google Chrome or browser window, and just gives you a shortcut to access it directly from your desktop rather than having to pull up the website all the time, and things like that.
Google Meet is free to use for everyone, and it integrates with, if you have a Google Workspace account, whether it's the Google One account for home users or a Google Workspace business plan, you can integrate it with those services, with your calendar, and things like that. Google Meet also has iOS and Android apps, which are accessible and will provide screen reader announcements, and various things like that, for using Google Meet with your mobile devices. We're on the Google Meet screen.
Audio Prompts: Button. Expand link. Google Meet. 2:32 P.M. •Wednesday. Rate 45. Menu button. Collapse. Sub menu support. 2:32 P.M. •Wednesday, April 16th.
Karl Belanger: Shows the date and time at the top.
Audio Prompts: Menu button. Collapse. Sub menu support. Button. Report a problem. Button settings. Button. Collapse. Google app button. Collapse. Google dialogue navigational drawer.
Karl Belanger: This navigational drawer dialogue lets you choose between meetings or calls. I'll show that later.
Audio Prompts: Heading. Level 1 video calls the meetings for everyone. Connect, collaborate and celebrate from anywhere with Google Meet. Button. New meeting.
Karl Belanger: We have our New Meeting button, or if I keep arrowing down...
Audio Prompts: Enter a code or link. Get it. Enter the code or link.
Karl Belanger: We have the box to enter the code or link to join a meeting that someone may have sent you.
Audio Prompts: Button not available. Join.
Karl Belanger: The Join button is unavailable because I don't have anything in the box, so there's nothing to join.
Audio Prompts: Button. Previous.
Karl Belanger: And here we have a little carousel which has some information. I'll just read the first slide. We don't need to go through all these.
Audio Prompts: Graphic. Get a link you can share. Heading level 2. Get a link you can share. Click New Meeting to get a link you can send to people you want to meet with. Button. Next. Link, learn more about Google Meet. Google Apps. Google apps.
Karl Belanger: And that's all that's on this page. So very simple, straightforward first page. Not a lot here except the Join or the New Meeting button, which is what we want to get into.
Audio Prompts: Join new meeting. Button.
Karl Belanger: So I'll hit New Meeting.
Audio Prompts: New meeting menu.
Karl Belanger: And it pops up a menu.
Audio Prompts: Create a meeting for later. 1 of 3.
Karl Belanger: Which will just give me a link that I can then use when I'm ready to do it. Send around to people, et cetera.
Audio Prompts: Start an instant meeting. 2 of 3.
Karl Belanger: We'll do this in a second. That does what it implies, just starts a meeting.
Audio Prompts: Schedule on Google Calendar. 3 of 3.
Karl Belanger: We'll open a Google calendar form where you can create your own meeting, and go from there. What we want right now is...
Audio Prompts: Start an instant meeting. 2 of 3.
Karl Belanger: So I'll just press Enter on that.
Audio Prompts: New meeting. Button. Collapsed. This page is accessing your microphone. Change the setting. Heading level 1. DFA tube key.
Karl Belanger: So we have the meeting code at the top. And Google uses alphanumeric codes.
Audio Prompts: Call controls. Region menu. Button. Collapse. Sub menu. Audio settings. Button. Turn off. Microphone. Turn on microphone.
Karl Belanger: So I'll turn off the microphone.
Audio Prompts: Menu button. Collapse. Sub menu. Audio settings.
Karl Belanger: We have the Audio settings menu. I'll-
Audio Prompts: Are you talking? Your mic-
Karl Belanger: And it's warning me that my mic is muted. So I'll-
Audio Prompts: Menu button. Collapse. Sub menu. Audio settings. Menu button. Collapse. Sub menu. Video settings. Button. Menu button. Collapse. Sub menu. Audio setting. Expanded. Menu button. Collapse. Sub menu. Speaker. Speakers. [inaudible 00:07:09].
Karl Belanger: And this is where I can choose my speakers.
Audio Prompts: Button. Settings. Button. Settings. Menu button. Collapsed. Sub menu. Speaker menu button. Collapsed. Sub menu. Microphone. Microphone. [inaudible 00:07:19].
Karl Belanger: And then I can also go into setting.
Audio Prompts: Menu button. Settings. Settings. Dialogue.
Karl Belanger: Will show off here.
Audio Prompts: Settings. Tab control. Audio tab. Selected 1 of 6.
Karl Belanger: And so now that we're in the meeting, we have our audio settings.
Audio Prompts: Video tab. 2 of 6.
Karl Belanger: Video settings.
Audio Prompts: General tab. 3 of 6.
Karl Belanger: General.
Audio Prompts: Captions tab. 4 of 6. Meeting records tab. 5 of 6. Reactions tab. 6 of 6. Microphone. Microphone. Studio sound. Switch on. Filters sound from your mic that isn't speech.
Karl Belanger: Google Meet calls their noise-canceling Studio Sound, which uses Gemini to help filter out and adjust for background noise, and other things like that.
Audio Prompts: Push to talk. Additional information button. Push to talk. Switch. I'll press and hold space bar to unmute your mic.
Karl Belanger: So just like Teams, Google Meet does have a push to talk feature, where you can press and hold the space bar.
Audio Prompts: Speaker. Speakers. Test speakers button. Caller control button. Collapsed. Close dialogue button. Settings. Tab control. Audio tab-
Karl Belanger: And that's the audio tab. There's a video tab where you can change the camera.
Audio Prompts: Video tab. 2 of... Video tab. 2 of 6. Alert. Camera failed.
Karl Belanger: It says camera failed because it's already being used-
Audio Prompts: General tab. 3 of 6.
Karl Belanger: ... by Zoom.
Audio Prompts: Captions. Meeting record. Reactions. Backgrounds and effects button. Camera. Loading webcam. Backgrounds and effects button.
Karl Belanger: And we could go into backgrounds and effects to choose the virtual backgrounds, as Jonathan was discussing earlier. That lets you set different blur effects or different backgrounds, that a lot of these will have beach backgrounds, cafe, office, space backgrounds.
Audio Prompts: Are you talking?
Karl Belanger: Winter scenes, things like that.
Audio Prompts: Settings. Dialog. Settings. Tab control. Video tab. General tab. 3 of 6. Captions. Tab 4. Meeting records. Tab. Reactions tab. 6 of 6.
Karl Belanger: And Google just recently added the ability for screen reader users to be notified of reactions. Either you can choose to either have a sound played, have the reaction announced, or have the reaction announced along with the name of the person who said it.
Audio Prompts: Your meeting's ready.
Karl Belanger: All right, so I just escaped out of settings.
Audio Prompts: Menu button. Collapsed. Karl Belanger. 2:37. Separator. Call controls region. Audio settings. Menu button. Turn on microphone button. Video sub. Camera problem. Camera problem. Turn on captions. Tab. Send a reaction. Toggle button. Press present now button. Raise hand. More options. Leave. Call button. Navigation-
Karl Belanger: And I'm in the meeting, and we have the toolbar here.
Audio Prompts: Toggle-
Karl Belanger: I'll go through these.
Audio Prompts: Menu button. Collapse. Karl Belanger. 2:37 P.M.
Karl Belanger: So we have again, my name and the time at the top.
Audio Prompts: Separator. Heading level 1 DFA tube key.
Karl Belanger: The code.
Audio Prompts: Call controls. Region menu button. Collapse. Sub menu. Audio button. Turn on mic. Menu button. Button. Camera. Button. Camera. Toggle button. Not press. Turn on captions.
Karl Belanger: We can turn on automatic captions.
Audio Prompts: Toggle button. Now press. Collapse. Send a reaction.
Karl Belanger: These are the reactions I was mentioning earlier.
Audio Prompts: Button. Present now.
Karl Belanger: Present now allows me to screen share. I'll get into that in a moment.
Audio Prompts: Toggle button. Not... Press Raise hand. Ctrl + ALT + H.
Karl Belanger: Raise hand, Ctrl + ALT + H. I should also mention, to unmute your microphone, is Ctrl D. And to turn on and off your camera, is Ctrl E.
Audio Prompts: Menu button. Collapse. Sub menu. More options. Button. Leave call. Out of region navigation. More. Toggle button. Press Meeting details. Toggle button. Press People. One. Toggle button. Press Chat with everyone.
Karl Belanger: And then we have our participants panel and our chat.
Audio Prompts: Toggle button. Press Meeting 2. Tools. Toggle button. Press Host controls.
Karl Belanger: And our meeting tools and host controls to lock the meeting, kick someone out, do whatever you need to do.
Audio Prompts: Dialogue. Your meeting's ready.
Karl Belanger: And we have this Meeting's Ready dialog here at the bottom, which I'll go into.
Audio Prompts: Your meeting's ready. Dial button. Button close. Heading level 2. Your meeting's ready.
Karl Belanger: My meeting's ready.
Audio Prompts: Button. Button. Add others.
Karl Belanger: I can invite others.
Audio Prompts: Or share this meeting. Link with others you want in the meeting. Meet.google.com/DFA tube key.
Karl Belanger: And we have the meeting link, which is meet.google.com/the meeting code. Now Google uses, instead of a series of numbers, Google uses letters for their meeting code, which can cause some interesting pronunciations with screen readers.
Audio Prompts: Button. Copy link.
Karl Belanger: Just to be aware of. Then we have a copy link button.
Audio Prompts: Graphic. Your meeting is safe. People who use this meeting link must get your permission before they can join. Joined as [inaudible 00:11:37]. Button. Close. Navigation.
Karl Belanger: And so that's the invite thing it prompts you. And it also wrote a very important point. Google meetings, by default, have a waiting room. So when someone comes in, you'll get a prompt saying,
Jonathan Moson wants to join your meeting. And then you can admit that person, or kick them out if they're not supposed to be there. Let's get into screen sharing next, because there's a couple of things to know about that.
Audio Prompts: Turn on micro. Videos. Camera prop. Turn on caption. Send a reaction. Present now button. Choose what to share with meet.google.com dialogue. The site will be able to see the contents of your... Chrome tab. Tab Control. Chrome tab. Tab selected.
Karl Belanger: So we have Chrome tab.
Audio Prompts: Window tab selected.
Karl Belanger: Window.
Audio Prompts: Entire screen tab selected.
Karl Belanger: And those are our three options. In Chrome tab...
Audio Prompts: Chrome tab. Property page selected. Tab to share. Also share tab. Audio toggle button. Press Checked.
Karl Belanger: ... we can share the tab audio.
Audio Prompts: Chrome tab list.
Karl Belanger: And we have no Chrome tabs, because I don't have a browser open right now. But if I did, I would see the tabs here. And we can share tab audio. If I go to either screen or window...
Audio Prompts: Chrome tab. Tabs. Window tab selected. Window property page to share. Audio. Share a tab instead. Window grouping. NVDA highlighter. Window button. Screen sharing. Meet and controls button. To a Google Meet. Meet. Webex button for Zoom. Workplace button. NVDA highlighter. Screen sharing.
Karl Belanger: So we have my windows here, but it said something very important. With Zoom or Teams or Webex, you can share your screen.
And when you choose to share audio, your screen reader audio will come through, along with whatever other audio your system might generate, unless you redirect your screen reader to a specific output device. This is not possible with Meet. When you share in Google Meet, you can share, if you're sharing, say a YouTube tab in Chrome, and the Audio checkbox is on, you will share your YouTube audio, and be able to get the audio from that Google tab, and be able to go through and listen to that video.
However, if you're sharing, say a Word document, you will not be able to share screen reader audio. Which could be a problem for blind users who want to do a demo or review and have the participants be able to hear the screen reader audio as they go through. So that is an important caveat to keep in mind-
Audio Prompts: Share button.
Karl Belanger: ... with Google.
Audio Prompts: Cancel button.
Karl Belanger: I'm just going to cancel out of this.
Audio Prompts: Meet. Toggle button. Press Raise hand. Menu button. Collapse. Sub menu. More options. Button. Leave call. Menu button. Call options menu.
Karl Belanger: And now if we go into the More options screen-
Audio Prompts: Manage streaming. 1 of 10.
Karl Belanger: ... you can stream the meeting.
Audio Prompts: Manage recording. 2 of 10.
Karl Belanger: Obviously, as with most of these platforms, you can record your meeting.
Audio Prompts: Change layout. 3 of 10.
Karl Belanger: Can adjust your layout.
Audio Prompts: Full screen. 4 Of 10. Open. Picture. Picture. 5 of 10.
Karl Belanger: Picture. And picture is mainly for sighted users, which will keep the meeting window in a small corner of your screen, while letting you do other things, and still be able to see it.
Audio Prompts: Backgrounds and effects. 6 of 10.
Karl Belanger: Backgrounds and effects. This is another shortcut to the controls in the video settings we saw previously.
Audio Prompts: Report a problem. 7 of 10.
Karl Belanger: Report a problem lets you tell Google if something went wrong.
Audio Prompts: Report abuse. 8 of 10.
Karl Belanger: Report abuse. Again, if you have a Google Meet equivalent of a Zoom bomber, or some other content issue going on with your meeting, you can use this.
Audio Prompts: Troubleshooting and help. 9 of 10. Settings. 10 of 10.
Karl Belanger: And troubleshooting and settings will get you back to the other controls.
Audio Prompts: More options.
Karl Belanger: Lastly, I'll show off the host controls.
Audio Prompts: Button. Leave call. Out of region navigation. Landmark. Toggle button. Press Meeting details. Toggle button. Press People. 1. Toggle button. Press Chat with everyone. Toggle button. Press Meeting tools. Toggle button. Press Host controls. Pressed.
Use these host settings to keep control of your meeting. Heading level 3. Meeting moderation. Switch on host management. Lets you restrict what contributors can do in the meeting. Heading level 4. Let contributors. Switch on. Let everyone share their screen.
Karl Belanger: And here are the controls for if you need to disable screen share.
Audio Prompts: Switch on. Let everyone send messages.
Karl Belanger: Chatting.
Audio Prompts: Switch on. Let everyone send reactions. Switch on. Let everyone turn on their microphone. Turning this off might remove people using an outdated Meet app or non-Google meeting hardware. They can rejoin when it's turned on again. Switch on.
Let everyone turn on their video. Turning this off might remove people using an outdated... They can rejoin... Heading level 3. Meeting access. These settings also switch off... Host must join before anyone else. Heading level 4. Meeting. Radio button not checked. Open. No one has to ask to join. Radio button checked. Trusted. People can join without asking if they're invited, using their Google account. Everyone else must ask to join. Switch on. Let contributors share add-on activities.
Karl Belanger: And here's where you'd adjust your waiting room preferences. If you just have a meeting between friends and don't want to deal with waiting rooms, and things like that, you could turn it off here.
Audio Prompts: Off.
Karl Belanger: And there's more controls.
Audio Prompts: Let contributor share add-on. Meeting access.
Karl Belanger: I'm going to go back and get out-
Audio Prompts: Meeting access. Let contributors. Meeting monitor. Host controls. Heading level 2. Main landmark. Karl Belanger. Menu button. Button backgrounds and effects. Button unavailable. Back. More. Close button. Navigation.
Karl Belanger: Close the host post controls.
Audio Prompts: Post controls. Navigation. Meeting tools. Chat with everyone. Toggle button. Up.
Karl Belanger: And I will just show off the chat window as well real quick.
Audio Prompts: Pressed. Send a message. [inaudible 00:17:02]. Send a message. Blank.
Karl Belanger: We could send a message to the meeting.
Audio Prompts: Call. Control. Button. Turn on microphone. Menu. Out of reach. Separator. 2:45. Send a message. Won't be able to access this chat. You can pin a message to make it visible for people who join later. When you leave the call, you won't be able... You can... Switch on. Let everyone send messages.
Karl Belanger: And again, we can choose who can send messages here.
Audio Prompts: Button. Close. Send a message at multi-
Karl Belanger: And because we don't have participants to choose or any chat history, it's just a basic edit field with a Send button.
Audio Prompts: 2:46. Button not available. Send a message-
Karl Belanger: Which is disabled, because there's nothing in the chat.
Audio Prompts: Let everyone send messages. Close button. Button. Meet.
Karl Belanger: And we will leave this call.
Audio Prompts: Meeting tools. No next button. Meeting. Chat with everyone. People. Toggle. Meeting to take... Call control. More options. Menu button. Raise hand. Leave call button. End the call or just leave? Dialogue button. End the call. Button. Just leave the call. Button. End the call for everyone.
Karl Belanger: And we'll end the call for everyone because I'm the only person in it.
Audio Prompts: Unavailable. Button. Leave call. Meet. Heading level 1. You've ended the meeting for everyone. Button. Return to home screen.
Karl Belanger: And I've ended the meeting, we'll return to home screen.
Audio Prompts: Google Meet. New meeting. Connect.
Karl Belanger: Now I mentioned earlier that it has video calls as well.
Audio Prompts: Banner landmark. Google account dialogue. Navigation.
Karl Belanger: So if I go into this Navigation drawer, that I glossed over earlier, I have-
Audio Prompts: Calls not... Meetings. 1 of 2.
Karl Belanger: ... meeting-
Audio Prompts: Calls. Not selected. 2 of 2.
Karl Belanger: ... or calls.
Audio Prompts: Selected. Loading. Start a call or create a group call Link. Dialogue. Navigational. Start button. Start a call. Button. Create group link. People can reach you at... Block. People button. Button. Start a call.
Karl Belanger: And all we have here is controls to start a call or create a group link. And if I hit Start a call-
Audio Prompts: Dialogue. Video call. Call a phone number.
Karl Belanger: ... it gives me a box where I can enter a phone number or email. And this will send a link to the Google Meet app, to that person. If they don't already have it or if they do have it on their device, or linked to their account, it will initiate a video call, and they'll be able to access it. Google Meet, as you can see, is a fairly straightforward messaging app.
Audio Prompts: Start a call.
Karl Belanger: You can access all the keyboard shortcuts by hitting Ctrl / in a meeting, and that'll bring up a list of all the different keyboard shortcuts. Again, Ctrl D is for audio. Ctrl E is for video. Ctrl Alt H lets you raise and lower your hand. And there are a number of others that you can view through the keyboard shortcuts box. Google Meet-
Audio Prompts: Screen sharing. Meet and control-
Karl Belanger: ... again, is free, and is certainly a viable option for anyone who wants straightforward, simple meetings, to do with friends, family, colleagues. Or if your company's a Google Workspace company, you may find Google Meet to be the best option for you, in those cases.
Recording: Join our 2025 National Federation of the Blind National Convention, from July 8th to July 13th, at New Orleans, Louisiana. Our National Convention is the largest gathering of blind people in the world. It is the premier event for training, support and information for the blind community. The National Convention offers hundreds of sessions, dynamic presentations, and countless opportunities, as well as a chance for members to participate in decision making in organizational policy. Now is the best time to book your hotel stay. Learn more at nfb.org/convention.
Lachlan Thomas: Hello, Jonathan and listeners of the Access On podcast. This is Lachlan Thomas from Melbourne, Australia. I wanted to make some comments about the discussion, Jonathan, between you and one of the other members of the NFB, about Bluetooth earbuds, and my experiences with them. Firstly, I just wanted to address Asia's remarks about using the Beats Bluetooth earbuds with the Victor Reader Stream 3. I believe, Asia, you talked about being unable to control the Victor Reader Stream's playback functions with the Bluetooth headphones. At the moment, I don't believe it is possible to control the Victor Reader playback features with an external Bluetooth audio device, even if it has controls for playback. What are they calling it? AVRC, I think it is, the Bluetooth profile audio-video remote control. I think it is. The stream doesn't support that. I think it only supports adjusting the volume.
Late last year I bought the Apple AirPods 4, with active noise cancellation. I was mainly interested to try out the Dolby Atmos head tracking technology. There is some content in Apple Music that you can access, that's optimized for Dolby Atmos. And you can supposedly have it position different instruments in a song, for example, in different places, depending on how you have your head situated. I tried this out and was very impressed. Our listened to some Beatles and some Billy Joel, and a few other artists on Apple Music. There's a specific section in Apple Music for Dolby Atmos enhanced audio content, and I was very impressed with the performance. Some of the recordings were more impressive than others, but I was quite happy with the way the technology worked. I did have some issues. I have Background App Refresh on my iPhone switched off, and I did have sometimes where the headset would just, for some reason, switch from head tracked to positional audio. Where, I was still getting positional audio, but it wasn't relative to where my head was situated.
I lock my iPhone whenever I'm not actively using it. So if I'm listening to music and it's just going to be playing music for a while, I will lock it. I do not like leaving my iPhone unlocked when I'm not actually manipulating or operating it. And so I have it locked, and I wonder if that was causing that problem I had? Because when I would unlock it, positional head tracked audio would return. Regarding the AirPods with ANC, themselves, I was very impressed with the presentation of the package. The AirPods felt quite comfortable in my ears. Now these were the standard AirPods, not the AirPods Pro, so they didn't have the little replaceable rubber tips on the end of them. I don't understand how those things work, and I don't really care to understand. But I thought the sound quality was very adequate, very good. And I love the little carrying case they come in, because it's so easy to charge the batteries in the headphones. And the case makes noises to indicate when it's charging or when it needs charging.
It also has Find My enabled, so it's easy to track the case if you misplace it, because you can make it beep, the case for the AirPods Pro. The AirPods 4, with ANC, does have a little beeper speaker in it. The active noise cancellation performed very well. I was very impressed with that. Unfortunately, when I bought my AirPods 4, with ANC, I discovered a show-stopping bug. An absolute show-stopping, really serious bug with the headphones. I went through three of the AirPods 4, with ANC, and had the exact same problem with each set. I was listening to music on my AirPods 4, with ANC, and suddenly, without any warning, the right AirPods started going [inaudible 00:25:10]. This really loud rumbling, crackling, hissing noise just started emanating from the earpiece, and I thought, "Oh, oh, this isn't good. Why is it doing that?" So I put the AirPods back in the case, and closed the case, and left it for a while. Got them out again, and they started making that noise again. So I left them unattended in the case for about an hour, and they worked again.
But then the right AirPods started popping. Started going, pop, pop, pop. And the popping started increasing in frequency. I returned the AirPods to Apple for a replacement. I explained that the right AirPods had failed, and was making all kinds of unpleasant noises. I was issued a new set of AirPods from stock, and I took them home and tried them out, and I was very happy. Two weeks later, the left AirPods started making the same noises. Rumbling, crackling, hissing noises. It sounded like wind blowing in my ear. It was very unpleasant. And the noise was about as loud as the music I was listening to. I returned that set to Apple, and was issued a new set. Two days later, the right AirPods on the third set started behaving in exactly the same manner. I raised a ticket with Apple technical support, and eventually I just said, "I've had enough. This isn't working for me. I can't use these things. They're no good. They're faulty." So I took them back to Apple and asked for a refund, which I was given.
I really wanted to like the AirPods 4, with ANC. I really wanted to enjoy them, but that bug was too much. I just couldn't use them, not in that state. And I would highly encourage anyone who wants the AirPods 4, with active noise cancellation, to seek reassurance from Apple that this bug has been addressed, before they buy them. This was in December last year, January this year. I understand there was a similar problem with the AirPods Pro 2, I believe, back in 2020. I can't remember the details, but I think Apple were either able to correct the problem with a firmware update, or they had to redesign the AirPods. I can't remember. But if you're going to buy the AirPods 4, with ANC, I would really highly encourage you to ensure that the problem has been addressed before you spend the money. They are $299 Australian, which is okay. The technology behind the AirPods is really quite sound. I liked the ability to have the little AirPods in my ears. Normally I don't like earbuds, normally I prefer the headphones that go over the top of your head.
But I thought they might be very convenient to use, and they were. The other issue that I had with them, and this is really the nature of the earbuds' beast, is that because they don't hook onto or attach to your ear, they are vulnerable to coming out when you're performing certain activities. I found for example, that if I wore my AirPods while I was eating, they would work their way out of my ears, which was a little bit annoying. The way that technology works, such that the AirPods can detect when you have only one AirPod in one ear, and they can down mix the audio to mono, I think is fantastic. I think the concept is very sound, but the execution just isn't quite there yet, I'm afraid. Now I'm comparing my AirPods to a set of JBL Live 400 BT Bluetooth headphones that I have. Cheap headphones, basic headphones, but very good headphones. I think I paid about $100 Australian for the JBL Headphones from Officeworks.
They do not have active noise cancellation, but they're noise isolating. And I find that they're compact and lightweight, but the sound quality they produce is really very serviceable for my needs. They also have an ambient to wear feature, which, like the transparency modes of many Bluetooth AirPods, and other earbuds, uses microphones on the headphones to basically pipe audio into your ears electronically. It's not a feature I use very much, but it is there. The JBL headphones app is not as accessible as it probably could be, but it's quite usable to a voiceover user. So those are my 2 cents.
Jonathan Mosen: And thank you for those 2 cents, Lachlan. Much appreciated. I did a little bit of research with ChatGPT in search mode, and asked if there are other occurrences of this, the AirPods 4, with active noise cancellation, experiencing crackling noises in one ear. And ChatGPT tells me there are numerous reports of this problem, the crackling in one ear. It says that the active noise cancellation feature seems to be the culprit. That it happens much more often when active noise cancellation is on, suggesting there may be some sort of issue with the active noise cancellation algorithm. Some people are reporting, apparently, that when they get a replacement, the problem goes away, suggesting that there is a bit of a bad batch somewhere. And perhaps, Lachlan, you got really unlucky and got three from that bad batch. Who knows what's going on? They do suggest that you ensure that your firmware for your AirPods 4, with active noise cancellation, is right up-to-date. And that if you experience the problem, you take them back to Apple, Apple will swap them out. And if you don't get satisfaction, you can do what Lachlan did, and get a refund.
Regarding the AirPods falling out of your ears, Lachlan. Well, that's precisely what that closer fitting with the custom tips of the AirPods Pro, is designed to fix. So if you got the AirPods Pro, and you fit the end of the earbud that best matches your ear canal size, they should stay in much more firmly. So with the generic tip, it's more likely that the AirPods are going to come out of your ears. So thank you very much. That's insightful, and hopefully it will help others. If you've had this experience, let us know whether you've got it resolved. [email protected] is how you can get in touch. You can, if you are from an NFB chapter, let us know what chapter you're coming in from, and we'll give a shout-out to that chapter. [email protected], you can write something down, or you can do what Lachlan just did, and send us an audio attachment.
Rick Roderick is writing in about Copilot. He says, "I have been using the free version of Copilot. Up until today, it was working great. I would write the answer, and JAWS would read it back. I updated Windows 11 this morning. When I was in Copilot, I was not put in the Edit box. I tabbed until I got there. When I wrote the question, I could read what I wrote, with speech, but it didn't show up on my Braillean display. No answer was read to me. I had a sighted person check, and the answer was there. Using the JAWS cursor didn't show the result. I tried the same thing with NVDA. The text appeared on the Brailliant this time, but no text was read. The one thing that did work was speaking to Copilot through the microphone. Do you, or any listeners, know about the workaround for this situation?"
Let's see if anyone can help with this, Rick. I'm not able to reproduce it, but I can't produce it with exactly the same settings as you, because I do have a Microsoft Copilot license, which gives me access to the professional version of Copilot. So when I run it, that's the experience that I'm getting, and it may be that that's the difference. If anybody else is using the free version of Copilot, with the latest update to Windows 11, and JAWS, with success, then do let us know how it's all working for you. [email protected], we'll see if we can get some answers for you. In the meantime though, if it is bothersome to you, I would encourage you to reach out to the Microsoft Disability Answer desk. Microsoft does seem to have very good mechanisms in place for collecting feedback, and ensuring that it's passed on to the correct people. So if you can have them see what's going on, maybe they can use technology to remote into your computer, and they can verify what's going on.
It may be that they can escalate this to developers, and have it addressed. So never a bad idea to get in touch with the Disability Answer Desk. By and large, they are highly regarded. And you can find out about how to contact them on the Microsoft Accessibility website, or just search for Disability Answer Desk. They have numbers all over the world, and they also are available through the Be My Eyes app, if that's an easy way to work with it. And Peter, from Melbourne, is having some Copilot trouble as well. He writes, "I have been trying to use Copilot, but when I ask it a question, and the answer is provided, it is difficult, if not impossible, to copy the answer and paste into an email to myself so I can use the answer or instructions. For example, I asked Copilot to help write a poem for my wife's 70th birthday, and the only way to capture the poem has been to have my Sense Player ready to record the poem, as it is read by JAWS.
I can get back to the questions I asked, but not the answer. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated." Peter, I can reproduce this if I use the Copilot feature that's built into Windows. So there are a couple of things that you might do. If you want to use that experience, you can use the JAWS speech history, which we talked about in Episode 24 of Access On. You can press the JAWS key with Space and H, and then you will find everything that JAWS has said recently, and you can select what you want to select, and copy it to the clipboard. And then you can go ahead and paste it in an email. You may also find that it's just better to use the web experience, by going to copilot.microsoft.com. And when you do that you'll have a standard web page, so copy and paste will work from there.
And Rich Yamamoto says, "I have a few tech questions that I'm looking to get resolved here. I'm looking for an accessible email client for Windows that works with both JAWS and NVDA. I've heard that Mozilla Thunderbird works well, but I've not had very good luck with this program, using JAWS. I would use Outlook, but I can't unify all of my inboxes into one place. EM client is horrible, in all capital letters too, as it's too verbose, in my humble opinion. I'll take any ideas at this point. I just want something that is reliable at this point. I also don't like that I had to purchase an add-on to get Microsoft Exchange working with Thunderbird. I've even tried using a fork of Thunderbird called Betterbird, but I'm still not satisfied." Well, let's see if anyone has any suggestions for you, Rich. Maybe you can tell us a little more about the problems that you're experiencing with Thunderbird and JAWS, and people may be able to comment. Because when you just tell us it doesn't work, that doesn't really give us much to go on, in terms of troubleshooting the issue.
I agree that it's a shame there is no unified inbox in Outlook, but Outlook has so much else to recommend it, that I just tolerate that, because it is such a comprehensive, accessible, efficient email client to use. Rich continues, "I am exploring different password managers that are compatible across multiple devices. I like the idea of iCloud Keychain, or Passwords, as Apple now calls it. However, I don't like the iCloud Passwords web extension because it doesn't seem to play nice with screen readers. Is 1Password still a good solution to this? I've started using Windows more than my Mac nowadays, and I've heard very good things about it. Is it still accessible?" Yes, it is still accessible. It went through a bit of a bad patch for a while, and unfortunately what happens then is that people give up. And technology changes all the time. So when 1Password 8 came out, there were some significant regressions.
I hung on to 1Password 7. And it was to 1Password's credit that they kept 1Password 7 available while they resolved some of these accessibility issues. But I have found it excellent. I use 1Password all the time on multiple devices, including Mac, iPhone, and Windows, and it's great to have everything in sync across those devices. It's super accessible on iPhone, and you can integrate it so that when you get it set up correctly, you can just use Face ID, it'll log you in. It also has very good passkey support. And it has a directory of websites and services that support passkeys, so you can eventually transition away from using passwords to using passkeys, which are much more secure. So yeah, it's a great experience. Another one to consider is Bitwarden, which some people enjoy using very much. And I believe that is also accessible across all major platforms, so you may want to check it out. And there are plenty of comparisons on the web about Bitwarden versus 1Password. You may find that one suits your particular needs more than another.
I think the critical thing is, whatever you choose to use, do use a password manager. In this day and age, when identity theft is such a big deal, making sure you have a different password on every website that you use, and employing two-factor authentication, wherever it's available. And then of course, switching away from passwords altogether, to passkeys, when you can, you'll be in better shape, from a security perspective. And identity theft is no fun. This email comes from Tasha who says, "Hi, Jonathan. I've been enjoying Access On. And after listening to the episode about Vector, I noticed some overlap between their product and an idea I've had for years now. I did email MakeSense Technology about my idea, and haven't heard back, but wanted to share it with Access On listeners as well, since one of the biggest challenges I run into when trying to get researchers interested in it, is that I'm, to my knowledge, the only blind person who has thought about how galvanic vestibular stimulation could help our community."
"I've contacted labs all over the country, but without a compelling case that GVS could help more than just me, I haven't been able to get anywhere. Some background. In addition to being blind, I have neurological differences that make mental mapping extremely difficult. The best way to describe it is that I have very little sense of horizontal and vertical planes, so all the sounds and other sensations I'm perceiving, don't have a place to go. Think about it like listening to everything in mono, or watching a movie without audio description. A few years ago I had the opportunity to informally try out galvanic vestibular stimulation, or GVS. This involves stimulating the nerves in the middle ear, responsible for balance, and it makes you feel like you are leaning in different directions. If it's powerful enough, it can even change the direction that you were walking in. I had a hypothesis that GVS would help me organize spatial information, and I was right."
"GVS can influence what direction your eyes are pointing in. Something that I think a lot of totally blind people aren't aware of, because it's not that useful. But I found that having my gaze rapidly shift to a particular direction, almost felt like my arm was stretching out into space, and I could direct my attention to that location. Suddenly I had a sense of horizontal and vertical, and could organize all that jumbled up sensory information. For example, I knew I was looking in the direction of a painting in my front hall, and could connect the bit of light I was to see, to that painting. Without GVS, I just tune out the light perception because I have no idea where it's coming from. Sounds reflecting off surfaces also felt more meaningful. I have very good auditory processing, so I think the rapid shifts in direction I'm describing, might be similar to what MakeSense is trying to do with Vector. But the advantage of what I'm proposing, is that GVS can be built into bone conduction headphones, so is hands-free."
"Also, instead of just giving us navigational cues, it has the potential to help us develop three-dimensional models of space. I'm not a cognitive neuroscientist, but I've done some research about GVS, vision, eye movement, and attention. The wearable I'm proposing would consist of GVS in bone conduction headphones, paired with some kind of head or eye tracking, so the GVS pulses go in the opposite direction of eye or head movements. Maybe some computer vision could also be built in, so the GVS pulses could direct our attention to salient objects in our environment. The closest I've come to finding other blind people who understand how this technology could benefit us, are accounts of people who experience a sensation of a room getting bigger or smaller if they contract or expand their neck muscles. GVS is like this, but you don't even need to think about it. If you have had these kinds of experiences, are curious about the technology I'm describing, or would like to team up with me to generate interest in this topic, I can be reached at tasha.chemel. That's [email protected]."
Let's talk more iPhone things now. And this email says, "I am Sandy Holverson, president of our NFB of Virginia Potomac chapter. I have an iPhone 16, regular, which periodically defaults to the app library. I tried to remove it in settings, but it came back. Two blind friends, who were far more tech-savvy than I, also attempted to remove it, and it keeps coming back. From the Brailliant, if I perform H with Space three times, I can get to a page number, and I'm out of the app library. When that doesn't let me escape the app library, if I lock the phone and unlock it, I can access my apps as I need, and life is good. I have not called Apple Accessibility, but will if I need to." Sandy, thank you very much for being in touch. During the iOS 18 beta cycle, I did come across people who said that they were experiencing this, that they were taken to the app library instead of their home screen. I thought it had been resolved, but it sounds like it hasn't been, if you are still experiencing this.
I've never seen this myself, but I know it's real, because I know reliable beta testers who saw exactly this issue, and I don't know whether there's a workaround. So perhaps if somebody knows of this workaround, because it is a real thing for some people, let us know the secret. It would, I think, be worth calling Apple Accessibility, because there may be some sort of documented thing that you should do, so that when you do the Home gesture, you are actually on the Home screen that you expect to be on, and not the app library. So I'd encourage you to give them a call, see if they can help you out, but let's just see if anybody else can tell us what the magic trick here is. [email protected], if you want to be in touch on this one. Why is it that for some people the app library is popping up instead of the Home screen, and what can be done about it? And Negoslav is in touch? He says, "Hi, Jonathan. I continue to enjoy the valuable content of your podcast." Thank you for that.
"I would like to take a moment to express my disappointment with the quality of support I recently received from Microsoft. I don't often need to use support services, and while I deeply appreciate the existence of a specialized accessibility support channel, I don't believe that staying silent helps improve service quality. Due to issues with transferring chats and contacts from Skype to Teams, I reached out to Microsoft Accessibility support via Be My Eyes. From my experience, and from hearing about similar issues from others, I suspect this migration process may still be somewhat underdeveloped, though that's a topic for another message. Several things during the support session stood out to me as problematic. Without informing me in advance, the support assistant uninstalled my current version of Teams, and installed a different one. At one point, due to quick keys on the web, the assistant struggled to type something, and nearly shut down my screen reader."
"Just before clicking Exit, he asked for my permission. I promptly said no, and switched JAWS to forms mode. Observing his actions, I got the impression that there may be no clear procedure in place, or at least not one that he was familiar with, for working with blind users. He seemed to be researching solutions for my specific issue, and Team's version, in real time, including searching in Bing. Though I'm not sure if he followed some written instructions. Ultimately, he managed to transfer only the chat history, but no visible contact section appeared. After consulting his supervisor, he agreed to escalate the issue to a higher level support team. However, I later received an email thanking me for my satisfaction with the resolved issue, which was not the case. I had to reply, clarifying that the problem remained unresolved, and remind them of the agreement to escalate it. I can't help but wonder whether I'm the only one encountering such difficulties, or the only one left with such an impression, regarding the service quality."
"Especially at the beginning of the call, I had a vague feeling, entirely subjective, that he might have preferred to be doing something else. He was never impolite, and he did spend over an hour trying to help me. The issue was partially resolved, but a partial resolution is ultimately unsatisfying. On a side-note, although I can mention contacts and chat by typing the @ symbol, it's much more convenient to have a dedicated contact section, than having to remember dozens of handles. Thank you for taking the time to read this." Thanks, Negoslav. If anyone else has any feedback on the quality of service they received from the Microsoft Disability Answer Desk, do be in touch. [email protected] is how you do that. And remember, if you're coming in from an NFB chapter to tell us where you're from. Let's talk more about online meetings, and this email says, "Hello, Jonathan. This is Maurice Mines, President of the National Federation of the Blind, Deaf-Blind Division. Here are some things that, in your next episode, hopefully, you can mention regarding deaf-blind attendees, or those who are hard of hearing, and/or deaf-first-blind-second, when dealing with online meetings."
"It is critical, absolutely no background noise, in terms of participants. It is probably best for the host to mute everybody, except for whomever is speaking. If Sally is speaking, Sally is strongly encouraged to say, "Hi, my name is Sally." And then Sally can say what she's going to say. When Sally is finished, Sally should stop talking, let everyone go silent for a few seconds. Then the next speaker can say, "Hi, my name is Tom." Then Tom can continue speaking. When Tom finishes, the same process is repeated. In other words, people need to say who they are and leave spaces between speakers, if at all possible. The next thing I would strongly suggest is, if you are doing a low-budget thing, and you want to make certain that people who use Braille displays can follow along, I would strongly suggest that people enable that Zoom feature. I don't know what it does on other platforms, but for people who use Braille displays, and can't hear the meeting going and/or the participants, this is extremely helpful, if you can find a way to do so, as a meeting host."
"Finally, if you are dealing with a participant who is deaf/blind, but is deaf and has some usable vision, and they ask for a video interpreter, your chapter group, or what have you, should seriously think about fundraising to make certain you hire professional certified interpreters. Because in that part of the deaf community, it is considered very bad to not have that type of setup. If people have specific questions about what I've mentioned above, they can feel free to reach out to the division and I will be happy to speak with them about what we do at our meetings normally, because we follow these rules as much as we can. Finally, if there are real issues with any of this, it is always best to record the meeting, and also make sure that there is a transcript of that recording. This can be helpful to allow people who are deaf/blind and hard of hearing to either follow along, remember, or refer to particular portions of the meeting should they have questions or concerns."
Let's talk Ham radio now, and unfortunately there is no name associated with this message, so I can't tell you who it is. But you may know who it is because it starts off, "Greetings from Western Maryland, and the newly elected vice president of the Western Maryland chapter." Well, congratulations on the election. "One problem I'm having is trying to learn new skills, using Winlink to send digital traffic. The program to operate the Winlink is Winlink Express, and that has proven an exercise in futility. The Airmail program is an alternative, but it has quirks of its own. The problem I have with Airmail is, you have a form in the program which can consists of a green button, where you can start filling a blank form. This button doesn't display consistently, even after you hit Alt Space X to enlarge the window in question." Well, if anyone has any help for that listener, with Winlink and Airmail, which are programs related to amateur radio, do be in touch. [email protected].
Mike May is commenting on YouTube TV. He says, Jonathan, I was a long time user of TiVo. They had a web interface and then various box versions. They remain the most responsive of any TV access I have, including Comcast, Spectrum and YouTube. I cut the cord a couple of years ago to YouTube TV, using the Amazon Fire TV in the house. The phone app is very good. The TV interface takes some getting used to, but is pretty good, other than being slow. The one very annoying factor is that the volume bursts much louder when you go from home Fire TV channels to the YouTube ones. I talked to my friend, Peter Cantassani, who was at Amazon. He looked into this and never gave a solution. It has somewhat to do with the connection to my stereo. There are various settings which are supposed to equalize the sound levels. I have tried them all, and they don't help much. I now just deal with it." Thanks, Mike. That does sound frustrating.
Let's talk personal finance now. And it takes me back to the old bulletin board days, which many people listening to this won't even have been around for. But you used to have these tag lines that would appear at the bottom of messages, in the bulletin board days, and one of them was, "Money Talks. Mine always says goodbye." Well, here's Kevin, and he says, "I have been on a journey with my personal finance management resources. Thankfully, my bank has a very accessible app and website. My credit card providers apps are also generally very accessible. My struggle has been with a service to aggregate all of my accounts together, for tracking purposes. Years ago when I could still use screen magnification to navigate, I was able to successfully use Quicken Desktop. Once my vision had degraded enough, that I had to depend totally on my screen reader, Quicken was no longer usable. I then migrated to Mint. Their website was mostly accessible, and their app was great, but Intuit discontinued that service, and migrated everyone to Credit Karma. I was not excited about that option, so I went looking once again. I landed on Quicken Simplify."
"Their iOS app is mostly accessible, but there are a few things that you can only do on their web app, on the PC, and I would also prefer to use my PC. It will occasionally force me to login again, and on my last attempt, the login screen was completely inaccessible. I tried multiple screen readers. After logging in with the help of an Aira agent, I can navigate around and get basic information, but if I want to accomplish much of anything, I once again have to call an Aira agent. Any help you can give me at Quicken would be greatly appreciated." Thank you for alerting us to this, Kevin. I'm sorry to hear about Quicken because years ago, on another podcast I was doing, we did a series on Quicken and it did seem to be accessible at the time. But of course, things change so quickly, and accessibility is very fickle. It can come and go unfortunately, and this is one of the challenges that we face. So let's put it out there in terms of either this particular software or other financial aggregation packages that people have found, that may be accessible.
But we'll certainly make a note of this, and see if we can establish some good communications with Quicken on this. So I appreciate you letting us know that you're having that issue. And we are concluding with our Tech Tip. The Access On audiences come through again. We had an inquiry last week about accessible dishwashers, and Ronit, I do hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, in San Jose says, "Hi, Jonathan. I'm really enjoying your podcast and all your demonstrations. I wanted to reply to the listener who was asking about accessible dishwashers. We recently got a new dishwasher and decided on the Bosch brand. Any of the dishwashers you pick from their line, except perhaps the lowest end, have the ability to be controlled with the Bosch mobile app. I am using an iPhone, and their app is very accessible. Once you turn on the remote option from the app itself, it allows you to select all options, all cycles, and all special features from the app. You can turn on the machine, set delay, turn off a cycle, and check to see how much time is left.
You also get notifications as to when cycles are completed, and when you need to add rinse aid. It's so accessible that we did not need to add any locator dots on the machine itself, although I did just put one on the Power button, in case of any connection errors. So far, in the last year of use, I haven't had any issues. I wish all home appliances were this accessible. Hope this helps." It does indeed. Thank you so much for that. That sounds very impressive.
That concludes this episode of Access On, the Technology Podcast of the National Federation of the Blind. To send in a contribution for a future episode, email us, attach an audio clip, or just write it down and send it to [email protected]. That's [email protected]. To keep up to date with Access On, follow us on Mastered On, [email protected]. That's [email protected] on Mastered On. To subscribe to an announcements only email list about upcoming episodes, send a blank message to [email protected]. That's [email protected]. To learn more about the National Federation of the Blind, visit our website, nfb.org, or phone us, (410) 659 9314. That's (410) 659 9314. And be sure to check out the Nation's Blind Podcast, right from where you heard this podcast.