Announcer:
Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast, presented by the National Federation of the Blind, the transformative membership and advocacy organization of blind Americans. Live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast. I'm Melissa Riccobono, and as often, or almost always, I'm here with my co-host.
Anil Lewis:
It's Anil Lewis, and I'm glad to be here as your co-host.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yes. Oh, I'm so glad to have you. How are you, Anil? How's Atlanta?
Anil Lewis:
I'm doing quite well. Atlanta's great. I'm in Baltimore today though. My home away from home.
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, how's Baltimore? I haven't even been outside yet (laughs).
Anil Lewis:
Neither have I (Anil and Melissa laugh). Luckily we have residential facilities here at our national center, so I don't have to worry about the Baltimore weather, but I'm pretty sure it's pretty nice. I think it's supposed to be in what, high forties, low fifties. Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah. So it's not bad. Oh, that's great.
Anil Lewis:
Not bad at all.
Melissa Riccobono:
Can't wait untill spring.
Anil Lewis:
We're going to take a new swing at this thing. We're doing something different with the podcast.
Melissa Riccobono:
We are. So it's kind of like spring. Spring of the podcast. So why don't you talk Anil about what is it that we're doing new today?
Anil Lewis:
Well, I love that our comms team is always trying to innovate new ways of making the podcast more interesting to our listeners. And I've really been impressed with the amount of feedback we've been getting from our listeners as of late. So keep it coming and you guys can help us continue to grow and evolve. But we want to start doing some of the podcasts where we can talk about some of the contemporary news issues that are going around impacting blind people because, well, we know in this current environment, news is everywhere and everything. So let's take our little slice of it and make sure that our listeners are aware, that we're informed.
And I think it's important to recognize that we as an organization state that it's not our blindness that creates the biggest barriers. It's the attitude that society has around blindness. And the biggest problem we have about attitudes being formed, is the way that we're portrayed in media. So I'm loving the topics today because we're going to be talking about specifically a radio kind of talk show called The Breakfast Club, which in the past they did this story about blind people and babysitting, and of course they made it sound like blind people were incapable of babysitting. What do you think about that, Melissa?
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, it was news to me because when my sister was growing up, my sister's also blind, she babysat all the time.
Anil Lewis:
What as a blind person?
Melissa Riccobono:
Yes. And the neighbor down the street had five kids, three of them very active, very rowdy boys. And she said my sister was the best babysitter she ever had because she'd come home and my sister would be on the floor wrestling with the boys and they ate their spinach.
They were strong little kids and they weren't mean. They just liked to wrestle. They had lots of energy. And at one point the neighbor said, "Wow, of all the things that's really nice of you to play with them that way." And my sister said, "Well, I knew right where they were, if they're wrestling with me, they're not getting in trouble" (laughs).
Anil Lewis:
Nice. Very nice.
Melissa Riccobono:
And she used to bring games for kids to play with and of course, who doesn't like games that aren't theirs and games that have Braille? And she would bring print Braille books to read. And so I really grew up sort of watching her do all these things and then followed in her footsteps. And I remember my senior year of high school being asked to babysit for a baby. He was probably six or seven months old, a few times for one of my teachers. And I just think, wow, what trust? I mean, it's one thing to have you be a four, five or six-year-old, but to really, and it was her first child, but she trusted me.
She knew that I could do it as a blind person. And now our daughter Oriana babysits all the time, and that's her happy place. And that is where I see her acting so grown up and so responsible. This is a kid that really struggles in a lot of ways with executive functioning for herself, but if she's in charge of somebody else's kid, it's like this whole new thing turns on and I just get a glimpse of what she's going to be like when she's a grownup. And of course she's learning. I'm not saying she's perfect, but when she's with other people's kids, it's really quite something to see. And so yes, blind people can absolutely babysit. And if people don't even think blind people can babysit, then how would they think blind people can parent? And that just makes me very angry.
Anil Lewis:
That's the crossover. So two things you said are very important. One, the trust factor. As a parent, of course I know that trust is there. But then the other piece is they had a relationship with your sister, the people you're babysitting for knew you, the people that Oriana's babysitting. It's a matter of getting to know and interact with blind people so you can really recognize that we have the capacity and in a lot of instances we're going to do things differently, but sometimes the different way we do things is actually better.
But people continue to make assumptions based on their ignorance, right? And their lack of exposure or seeing someone who is successful and independent as a blind person do things and then they perpetuate when they have the vehicle to talk to millions of people through their media platforms. That ignorance to everybody else, I mean, don't speak on things that you haven't learned about or experienced yourself because you may not recognize the harm that you're creating for people through that. And I get the jokes, that's fine. And I know we should learn to laugh at ourselves, but not to the point where it prohibits us from living the lives that we want or creating barriers to us having those opportunities that everybody else has.
Melissa Riccobono:
And here's the deal about particularly the babysitting story. Shawn Callaway, who's our president of the National Federation of the Blind of DC, he's a Breakfast Club listener, or he was, I don't know if he still listens, but he wrote them a letter and basically said, hey, I'm a blind dad. This is really hurtful to me. And I believe he's actually been a radio host. He does radio. And so he said, I'd love to come and set the record straight. I'd love to come and answer some of your questions about how it is that blind people can babysit, blind people can parent. And they never responded to him. And to me, that's a huge missed opportunity.
Anil Lewis:
Agreed.
Melissa Riccobono:
And it wasn't even, I mean, I know Shawn, I can't imagine he was mean or disrespectful to them. I just feel like he was probably just giving them a really good show idea from a listener and they didn't even have the wherewithal to respond in any way, a yes or a no. They just ignored it.
Anil Lewis:
Not only that, not did they not respond to this opportunity to try to educate them around the capacity of blind people. They had the audacity to go ahead and make the same mistake in this recent news story. So I think that we're going to play the clip from The Breakfast Club and then we're going to have a special guest to really talk intelligently about this particular issue.
Melissa Riccobono:
Sounds great.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Charlamagne:
Donkey of the day for Monday, February 10th goes to the folks who work at the city county building in Indianapolis. Now there is a man named Terry Sutherland, okay, who decided to perform a social experiment in Indianapolis and the social experiment was to highlight the need for common sense gun laws in America. Drop one of the clues bombs for Terry Sutherland.
I love a great social experiment, okay. I love, love, love, love, love a great social experiment. And I am "2A All Day," but I also understand the need for common sense gun laws. So Terry wanted to prove a point. And the point is that anyone can get a firearm in America. And when you hear more of the story, you will see that his point was proven. Let's go to ABC 10 for the report please.
The Breakfast Club Clip: News Report, ABC 10:
Tonight we're looking into a story getting some buzz. It claims a blind man was issued a concealed carry gun permit in Indiana. And it's true. Terry Sutherland was using his white cane when he came to the city county building in Indianapolis to get fingerprinted for the permit. He says he also spoke with several people who knew he was blind, but despite that, he was still issued a conceal carry permit without an issue. Sutherland has no intention of using a gun. He says he went through the process to highlight the need for common sense gun laws. He says he sent letters to state lawmakers and he has not yet heard back.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Charlamagne:
Round of applause for that man. Round applause to Terry Sutherland. Now, I know that a lot of people have a lot of negative stereotypes in regards to blind people. I say often that a lot of blind people can actually see better than those of us who have eyes, okay. I mean we are at the point in our lives that we don't even believe if Stevie Wonder is really blind, okay. But let me be the first to tell you, he is. And there's also a reason that Daredevil doesn't use guns. Y'all know who Daredevil is, right? Matt Murdock. Okay. Blind superhero. New series, "Daredevil Born Again" starting on Disney Plus, March 4th. This man once said in the comic books, he doesn't use guns because of the carnage that he could unleash on people. Yes, Daredevil, because you're blind. Okay (laughs). I believe blind people can do a lot of things in this country, but owning a gun and driving a car, probably not good ideas. Do we know blind people that drive cars?
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Loren LaRosa:
Do they? I never thought about how they get anywhere?
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Charlamagne:
(Laughs) You think they ride the dog? Huh?
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Loren LaRosa:
I just never thought about it.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Charlamagne:
Listen, Terry has the right to bear a cane but not arms, okay. And then if he does have a seeing eye dog that seeing eye dog better be trained like John Wicks because if you're shooting at everything the dog barks at, my God (laughs). Alright, blind people carrying guns is like blind people driving an Uber. Would you get into an Uber with a blind person? Okay, alright.
Now, Terry said he spoke to several people, you heard the news report, who knew he was blind. He came in with a white cane, but despite that he was still issued a concealed carry permit without an issue. Listen man, the reason you will never get common sense gun laws in America is simple, because nobody has common sense in America anymore (laughs), okay. And this story proves it. Some donkey of the day just sell themselves. Please give the city county building in Indianapolis the biggest hee haw (donkey sound: hee haw, hee haw). He said he wrote them a letter (laughs). That's what he said. He said wrote them a letter and he hasn't heard back.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Loren LaRosa:
(Laughs) what if they sent the letter and he just don't know he got it (laughs)?
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, DJ Envy:
They probably responded.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Loren LaRosa:
Y'all need to call homie though (laughs).
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Charlamagne:
Because he said he didn't hear back. I'm like, man, you said you was blind, not deaf (Loren laughs). So you might've gotten the letter back, my brother, okay. What is this?
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Loren LaRosa:
Is that Braille?
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Charlamagne:
He said this how the guy write. Cut it out.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, DJ Envy:
See, I was going to ask, but I didn't want to be foul because how he know how to stay online and how to be straight because he writing.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Charlamagne:
Stop.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, DJ Envy:
Close your eyes and try to write it a sentence. I bet you can't do it straight. I guarantee you can't do it straight.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Loren LaRosa:
Yes, I can.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, DJ Envy:
Close your eyes.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Charlamagne:
They have heightened senses guys. Alright, I'm lying. How do blind people write letters?
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, DJ Envy:
(Laughs) See, now you want to know!
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, DJ Charlamagne:
I don't know. I just want to know.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Loren LaRosa:
See, look what I wrote!
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, DJ Envy:
That's not straight.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Loren LaRosa:
It is straight.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Charlamagne:
I thought they use Braille to write letters.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Loren LaRosa:
They do use Braille. That's why I asked, was it Braille?
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, DJ Envy:
Braille to read.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Charlamagne:
No, to write letters too.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Loren LaRosa:
We probably sound so... I'm sorry.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, DJ Envy:
We sound so stupid. I'm sorry. All the blind listeners, I apologize.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Loren LaRosa:
And did you ask me could they drive earlier? Did I answer that?
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, DJ Envy:
He did ask and you said no.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Loren LaRosa:
Why would I answer that?
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, DJ Envy:
I don't know why you answered that.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, Charlamagne:
Well, it's okay to be stupid on this topic (Loren laughs). I'll be dumb. Somebody be deaf and y'all be blind and then we'll figure it all out.
The Breakfast Club Clip: Host, DJ Envy:
We'll figure it out?
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh boy.
Anil Lewis:
Wow.
Melissa Riccobono:
That's a lot to unpack there Anil (laughs)
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, and I think we're going to need some help, especially on this whole gun thing. So...
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah.
Anil Lewis:
Luckily we have an individual who's blind that actually is a licensed gun owner. Welcome Jim. You want to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
Jim Marks:
Sure. My name is Jim Marks. I am the president of the National Federation of Blind of Montana, and I am a member of the National Board of Directors. I've been a federationist for a long time. I am blind. I use a cane. I read Braille, although I need to get better at it and I use all the tools and tricks of blindness.
Listening to that clip, it makes me feel like there's a huge weight pushing me down because the low expectations are just overwhelming because there's no reason that a blind person cannot have, use firearms safely because I do. And I've also been a hunter's ed instructor in Montana for over twenty years. And so I actually teach people how to use firearms
Anil Lewis:
Clarifying, hunter's ed, you actually taught other people and this is sighted people?
Jim Marks:
Yes.
Anil Lewis:
First of all, let me point out to The Breakfast Club, we're exercising best practice so we have a topic and we're bringing in someone who actually has expertise and lived experience in that area so that we are not perpetuating our ignorance onto our listeners. So go right ahead, Jim.
Jim Marks:
Well, I'm a lifelong Montanan and our culture here is one where guns are everywhere. It's not like other parts of the country and it's not gun nuts who own and use the guns all the time. I don't consider myself to be some sort of radical right person in any way, shape or form.
But I grew up with firearms and because I was a son of a Montana rancher and pretty much every Montana pickup truck, even today, you'll find a firearm in the vehicle. And they were just tools that we had around and used and I knew how to use firearms pretty well. I became legally blind at age twenty-five and blindness didn't stop my use of firearms at all. So today, I'm not sure how many guns I actually own. I believe it's around ten right now. I gave away quite a few to relatives, my son and to my daughters and to grandchildren and stuff like that. My guns are in a gun safe, stored carefully. I do not carry concealed. In Montana, we do have concealed weapons permits that you have to apply and get for like Mr. Sutherland did in Indiana, but Montana opened up its rules and now you can carry a gun pretty much anywhere you want in Montana.
There's nothing that prevents you from doing that. I don't do it because I don't feel the need to do it and I definitely don't want to shoot anybody. I don't want to shoot another human being. And so there's just no need to carry a gun in my life. But I do when I go hunting or I'm out in the back country. And a lot of it is is because Montana has all the great predators, the bears, the mountain lions, and generally I would first reach for my pepper spray because I don't really want to hurt the animal and because pepper spray is actually a lot more effective than a firearm, but I do have a firearm as a backup in case I need it.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, I hear that bear spray is pretty potent and it has the range on it that's ridiculous. But I think that what you just expressed really demonstrates really the crux of it, right? Because you've made an individual choice on owning a gun and you have a different perspective than some others may have around the utility of the firearm, etc. But when you rob someone of the right to actually become a licensed gun owner, then you prevent them from making that choice.
Everyone else has that ability to make the choice. And one thing, and I'll pitch it to you, Melissa, they kept on saying common sense gun laws. I mean, I don't think the country's at a place where we're at common sense gun laws because it's such an interesting topic overall. Just like with anything else, the lack of sight doesn't prohibit someone from being responsible in the utility of any device, whether it be a gun or whether it be power tools or whether it be the capacity and ability to babysit.
These things are important in a way to make sure that we can be fully integrated into society. I mean, it's important for society to understand that we have the capacity to do these things so that we can be fully participating citizens. What do you think about all of this, Melissa?
Melissa Riccobono:
So I completely agree with you, Anil. To me, I don't, Jim, it's so interesting and that's why I love having different people on because of course you grew up in Montana where guns were just a part of the culture. I grew up in Wisconsin where they were part of the culture, deer hunting especially, but they weren't really part of my family culture. My family weren't hunters. And so I grew up just not really thinking much about guns one way or the other for myself. I don't think I'd personally ever want to own a gun. I might want to shoot one at some point at a range. That might be very interesting.
But that's my choice. Just like Jim, you have made the choice and a very responsible choice and you're doing all the right things. You have your guns in a gun safe, they're secure, when you're out on a hike. Yes, it makes total sense to me that if you're going to be possibly faced with a bear or a mountain lion, you're going to want something to protect yourself. And of course, if you enjoy hunting, and I'd love to get into that a little bit in a minute, how you go and hunt as a blind person and hit what you're aiming for and that type of thing, that's a right that you should have. And so I feel like there's so many reasons why if this blind man wanted a gun in Indiana and wanted conceal carry, no one says it has to be loaded.
If somebody feels like they want conceal carry and they want to carry that gun in a responsible way and they feel like they need to for protection, as long as it's legal for everybody else, who am I to say, no, you can't do it just because you're blind. I don't think that's right. And I think it's sad that this guy was really trying to make a point and is a blind guy that's saying, "Oh my gosh, there's no way I should be, I'm blind. There's no way I should be allowed to have a gun." That kind of makes me sad that he sort of has fallen into, I don't know, those low expectations and just "How could I ever, or why would they ever give me a gun?" And sort of use that as his agenda then to further, this is why the laws are backward and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But let me just go back for just a second because...
Anil Lewis:
Well before, let's finish that particular point though. I mean, it's a reflection of the fact that he has had low expectations imposed on him. I mean, he goes in thinking, sure, blind people shouldn't have a gun. That's reflective on the fact that he hasn't seen people like Jim or John Fritz or some of the others that we know that are responsible gun owners that are actually actively hunting. So he is a victim of what we're trying to discuss here. As long as the media continues to perpetuate that blind people don't have the capacity to do certain things, even blind people are going to start believing that they don't have the capacity.
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, and that's exactly right. And here's what I wanted to say about, I mean, the story just went, it started and then it just kind of went downhill. "Well, how do blind people write a letter? Well, he said he wrote a letter. How do they write? I mean, how is he going to write straight? Well, maybe he doesn't know that he got a letter."
Anil Lewis:
Opportunities for education right there.
Melissa Riccobono:
I mean, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa guys, there's things called computers and blind people can use them. And again, they really were showing their ignorance. And that's really too bad. And we asked Shawn Callaway about this, he's the one that wrote to them originally with the babysitting and he said, "They claim on The Breakfast Club that they really stand up for marginalized people, but it seems like at every turn they put down or don't stand up for disabled, marginalized people." So anyway.
Anil Lewis:
And then they mix it all up to the point where, and I know it's entertainment. So when they went down that path of Daredevil, really? Daredevil is a fictional superhero character. I mean, why doesn't Superman use a gun? Don't mix it up. Be entertaining, then be entertaining. But don't try to mix a real message in with the nonsense because it just confuses everybody.
Melissa Riccobono:
And had they said, I don't want a blind person shooting in a public place.
Anil Lewis:
That's their opinion.
Melissa Riccobono:
That's their opinion. But the way that they presented it was just, there's no way. There's no way we can, it's just common sense. It's just common sense. There's no way this should ever happen. And cheers to this guy who's blind who just proved this horrible point.
Anil Lewis:
And one last thing and then I'll go back to topic.
Melissa Riccobono:
Actually one last thing and then I think we should pause for an ad and then I think we should get back to Jim, becasue that's who people really want to hear from.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, I just had to vent. So this is too one last little piece and this exemplary of the mistake that everybody makes. At one point they were saying something about writing, they said, close your eyes.
I just want you guys to know, close your eyes means that's what it may be like to go blind, but it's not what it's like to be blind. All the stuff they were talking about, Braille, writing, sending email, whatever. Those things require training just like everybody else. You don't come out of the womb with the skillset, right? So you can't just say, close your eyes and this is what it must be like to be blind. No, the blindness experience is real. And we've learned alternative skills to make that we can read, write, send emails, and yes, even responsibly carry and use firearms.
Melissa Riccobono:
Absolutely.
Anil Lewis:
So yeah, let's go to an ad.
Ad:
Registration is now open for our 2025 National Federation of the Blind National Convention from July 8th to July 13th at New Orleans, Louisiana. Our National Convention is the largest gathering of blind people in the world. It is the premier event for training, support, and information for the blind community. The National Convention offers hundreds of sessions, dynamic presentations and countless opportunities, as well as a chance for members to participate in decision-making in organizational policy. Register today at nfb.org/convention.
Melissa Riccobono:
Alright, well we are back. So thank you for letting me vent Anil. I feel much better.
Anil Lewis:
It's mutual.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yes. And Jim, maybe you want to vent too, but I'm really curious. You said you're a hunter and you said that you continue to use firearms even after you lost your sight and you also instruct on being safe and on hunting. I'd love to hear the alternative techniques that you use. And I was really interested in something that's in our little outline here. Spoiler alert. We do have a little outline that our wonderful producer, DW puts together for us. So we sound at least partly educated about these things (Anil laughs).
But in this outline, she said that you often find that you are able to pick up on things that your hunting buddies miss because they're not using some of their other senses. And I mean, I can completely, I think with everything when you're blind, there are things I picked up on with my kids that I didn't need to see. There were things that I pick up on in a grocery store or whatever it is that people just don't pick up on because they're so busy using their eyes, which aren't their best sense all the time. So I just love to hear some of your experiences, your stories, your techniques.
Jim Marks:
That sounds great. Just in terms of venting a little bit, to my way of thinking, gun rights are civil rights and it's about the second amendment to the US constitution, and I will never be convinced that blind people should be categorically excluded from civil rights.
Melissa Riccobono:
I completely agree.
Jim Marks:
It's wrong.
Melissa Riccobono:
Especially because he doesn't have a criminal record. None of those red flags, and I believe in red flag laws by the way. But if he doesn't have any of those red flags, then there you go. And that's all I'll say about that, unless you want to say more, Jim (laughs).
Jim Marks:
That's good. So the way that I shoot is with a spotter. So a sighted person who helps guide my fire, and I have two main different ways of doing it. I sometimes use a pistol and there's no adaptation to the pistol. I prefer revolvers. And I shoot a caliber called a 44 Magnum that is strong and fast enough that it is designed to take down animals. You don't ever see 44 magnums used anywhere, but in the dirty, hairy movies by law enforcement because you fire a 44 magnum and it might pass through two houses before the bullet stops kind of thing. So it's not something that you want to use for home defense or anything unless you download the ammunition or something. So what happens is that it takes a lot of practice with both methods. So with a pistol, I basically brace up and it's about making sure, it's about the kinesthetic control of the firearm.
And I'm not target focused. That's the point of my spotter. My job is to really hold the firearm still and well. And when I fire, I want to be able to recover from the recoil and be able to fire a second shot without pulling the muzzle away from its former position. And so with the pistol that I use for hunting is a Smith and Wesson 44 magnum with a eight and three eighths inch barrel, which is really a long barrel. And at a hundred yards I can shoot about a six inch group, which is very good. There are a few handgun shooters that can do as well as that. And it takes a lot of practice. And so my spotter and I just will do an awful lot of practice shooting.
Anil Lewis:
Just for clarity, so the spotter, once you get that first shot, they'll tell you where you are in relation to the target so you can adjust?
Jim Marks:
Yes, so they're not touching the firearm in any way, shape or form. I'm holding the gun, they're standing behind me and they're sighting down just like we call them "iron sights," but just the regular sites that come on the Smith and Wesson revolvers, they just help me. They'll tell me up, down, left or right and then shoot. If we're in a place, like if we're actually hunting, they might put their hand on my back and move their hand up, but they want me to lift the barrel, drop it, and use a hand signal so that you don't draw attention from your prey. But mostly it's done quietly and verbally.
The second method is with what's called a scope camera. It basically is a camera and display device that looks through the scope of a rifle. And my spotter can see on the display, the displays are usually about the size of a cell phone. A lot of times they are cell phones so that they can see the crosshairs and everything and guide me the same way. And it's essentially the same thing. And with a rifle, I can easily shoot 300 yards very safely and well.
Anil Lewis:
Wow, there you go, Melissa. See now you can go to a range and have that experience.
Melissa Riccobono:
I could, and I mean, I love what you said, Jim, about practice. This is not something, and again, you grew up with this too, so you had a lot of that practice, but there's no reason if a blind kid is interested in hunting, like the rest of their family, that they can't go out and have that practice and start. I mean, I'm sure you didn't start with, I don't know how hunting works, but I'm guessing you work up to it kind of gradually as you get stronger and bigger because I would guess that guns are powerful things. And you're talking about the recoil. I can't even quite imagine what that feels like, but it's a skill. And you've developed alternative techniques over years and you've practiced your skill and I'm guessing you're successful. Do you go hunting each year?
Jim Marks:
Almost every year I do. There were a couple years that I did not just because I was working and doing other things at the time, but pretty much I do hunt every year.
Melissa Riccobono:
Are you successful pretty much every time?
Jim Marks:
Oh yes.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh yes.
Anil Lewis:
Look, I love it. "Oh well, of course" (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah. What have you shot and did you keep any of the pelts or any of the antlers or any of the, and do you eat the meat? All these questions.
Jim Marks:
Well, yeah, what I usually hunt for is elk. And elk meat is really, really good. It's very lean, it's very healthy. The animals are just gorgeous. And part of hunting is the guns part is a very small part. When you hunt, you get to know your environment, you get to know the animals. And for me, hunting is like a total immersion in environmentalism. So you mentioned earlier what is my contribution to the hunting party? And I don't hear better. I don't smell better.
Anil Lewis:
Thanks for correcting that. It's not heightened senses, it's just being able to use them better.
Jim Marks:
Exactly. I listen and I pay attention. And as a result of that, oftentimes I see the game before my sighted hunting partners do because I'm paying attention to what's going on all around me. And animals will give you clues about where they are and what's going on. And a lot of times people get so focused on sight that they forget to listen. But I don't, I pay attention. So there've been many a time when my hunting party was successful because I was part of the party. And then the other part of it too, and it's kind of a joke, I'm a big guy and if you're going to drag an animal out of the back country, I'm a really good friend to have (Melissa and Anil laugh).
Melissa Riccobono:
I'll remember that Jim.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, very nice. I'm curious, so you said you actually used to teach and you were actually teaching sighted of people. What were some of the reactions? Were they comfortable with you from the beginning? Did you have to use some strategy to get them comfortable with you being an instructor? What were some of those experiences?
Jim Marks:
That's a brilliant question, Anil, because I wrote Braille Monitor article called "Hey Mom, the Hunter Ed Guy is Blind." And one of the things that I would say is that if I were holding a high powered hunting rifle on one hand and a white cane in the other, the white cane disappears (Anil laughs). All the kids, all the students are paying attention to that rifle, that's what they're there for. And so really my blindness didn't matter at all really. It was all about making sure that we were conveying the approved curriculum and that we were making sure that we were connecting with our students and really helping them understand all the rights and responsibilities that go with hunting.
Anil Lewis:
So how old were these students? What grade was this?
Jim Marks:
They're twelve-year-olds. What is that? It's like seventh grade.
Anil Lewis:
Sixth. Seventh grade. Yeah.
Jim Marks:
Sixth, seventh.
Anil Lewis:
And I love that because I mean, at that age, you can really educate them to a way where we become part of their natural environment and it is nothing outrageous. It's almost just fun and interesting. So good for you in doing that. And maybe we can get some of The Breakfast Club guys to go to that seventh grade class and take a class or two.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, that'd be good. And I mean, that's such a good point too. You weren't teaching them how to shoot, right? That was somebody else's job? You were talking more about the safety, the responsibility, how to take care of your gun. That was kind of more your curriculum? Is that...
Jim Marks:
Actually, no. We would do live fire exercises as part of our class.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow. So how do they work? That's awesome.
Jim Marks:
Well, basically I would sit beside a student. We would use twenty rifles, which are pretty quiet and have no real recoil.
Anil Lewis:
That's what we grew up with back at my grandma's house.
Jim Marks:
And my job is just to be right there with the kids and making sure that they're understanding what they're supposed to do, where they hand placement, and where they put their cheek and all that kind of stuff. So I'm coaching them and then someone else is spotting where they're shooting. And there's usually a fire pit boss who basically acts like a master sergeant, drill sergeant, billing, fire ceasefire kind of thing. So it's a group effort. It takes a whole village to do hunter's ed.
Melissa Riccobono:
And making sure that they lock, put the safety on afterward or whatever, however it is that, I mean, I'm sure you went through all of it, loading, unloading.
Jim Marks:
Yeah, we would have them besides just the safety, we would actually have them open the actions so that you were sure that firearm was safe to lay down and was not going to misfire.
Melissa Riccobono:
Open the actions. So that's new to me. So where the bullets go, I'm guessing that's the actions?
Jim Marks:
Yep. Firearms are coming with different mechanisms. Like there's bolt actions and lever actions and semi-automatics and revolvers. And...
Anil Lewis:
I think you're getting her Jim (Melissa laughs). I think Melissa's going to be ready. That curiosity. That curiosity.
Melissa Riccobono:
No, just I'm just drowning in all. I don't know. I really know very little about any of this.
Anil Lewis:
She's going to head out and she's going to learn. Next time you talk to her, she's going to be talking to you all about all kinds of stuff (Melissa laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
I don't know about that, but I do think it would be an interesting thing to have experience with. And I know a guy who was in the Marines, so maybe he and I, at some point, I don't know if he likes to shoot, but maybe he and I go somewhere and I check out. I don't even know when you're saying revolver and twenty-two and forty-four mag and rifle, I kind of know what those are. But being blind all my life, I've never had a chance to feel a bunch of different guns even and kind of knowing what those are. So that would be interesting in and of itself.
Anil Lewis:
So you mean rather than sitting around talking about something you don't know anything about, you're going to go and do some more investigation and learn more?
Melissa Riccobono:
I would actually, yes.
Anil Lewis:
That's a really good strategy.
Melissa Riccobono:
I kind of like to do that. Maybe Jim, maybe I've never been in Montana. Maybe I come out and you show me your ten guns or what (Melissa laughs). I mean by the way, that just, it floored me a little bit when you said, "I don't even really know how many I have. I think I have ten. I gave some away" (Anil laughs). But again, that's your culture and that's great. It makes you happy. It is part of how you live the life you want. And that's the most important thing to me. It might not be the life that I want or that I would choose.
Anil Lewis:
That's right. You play Monopoly and let Jim go.
Melissa Riccobono:
That's right. I watch Gilligan's Island and I play Monopoly and I sing and I edit audio and I host the podcast.
Anil Lewis:
You mean blind people can play Monopoly? I'm sorry. I'm sorry (Melissa laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
How do you know a property you got, yo?
Anil Lewis
I do have to. Wow, yeah (Anil laughs). I'll give The Breakfast Club this much credit. As they evolved in their discussion around this, I think that they reached near the end in understanding that "We don't know what we're talking about." So there was a perfunctory apology, "I'm sorry, blind people." I don't think it was really legitimately to the whole topic, but it was interesting watching them evolve to a space so they realize, "Oh, you know what? We don't know what we're talking about."
Melissa Riccobono:
"Maybe we really don't know it." Yeah. Yes. And hopefully maybe we'll send them this podcast and will it make a difference? I don't know. But we can at least make a difference in our corner of the world, so that's right.
Jim Marks:
Well, and doesn't it make it kind of sad too, when you hear about a blind person who harbors all those low expectations and then sets out to prove it? It's like my heart goes out to Mr. Sutherland because I just want to put my arm around a shoulder and say, man, let me show you how it actually is.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yes.
Jim Marks:
That's what I want to say to him.
Anil Lewis:
And if it's really his desire because he is just an anti-gun person, which again, he has that right to do, then that's fine. But don't do it in the manner that prohibits someone else who would like to make a different choice from being able to legally do so.
Melissa Riccobono:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I know that we have another thing to talk about Anil, believe it or not. Jim, do you have anything else or a Anil, do you have anything else that we should talk to Jim about before we let him go on his merry hunting way?
Anil Lewis:
No, no, nothing at all right now. I'm sure you'll be following up with him to see when you can schedule a class and maybe you'll be in the same class with The Breakfast Club (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
Maybe, maybe when you come out, Jim, we go do something. I don't know. I would at least like to feel the different guns for sure. I would be very interested in that. I think that'd be very interesting. And I think I would like to shoot at least once, just so I kind of know how that feels. But I think I'll be good, but maybe I won't. Maybe I'll love it (laughs).
Anil Lewis:
Yeah might become a gun enthusiast. Yeah. And then next thing you know, Melissa will be like, "I don't know how many guns I have (Melissa laughs). I gave some to some of my family and friends..."
Melissa Riccobono:
But they will always be locked up, believe me. No doubt about that one (laughs).
Anil Lewis:
Thanks a lot, Jim.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, thank you guys so much.
Jim Marks:
If you guys come out, I'll have you shooting often, safely and well.
Melissa Riccobono:
Nice, often, safely and well. I love that. And I would love to try some elk meat as well. That sounds amazing.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, it's all in the way it's cooked, so I'm glad that Jim knows what he's talking about. So yes.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, absolutely.
Anil Lewis:
Thanks a lot Jim.
Melissa Riccobono:
Thank you so much, Jim. Always loved talking to you.
Jim Marks:
See you guys.
Anil Lewis:
Alright, take care.
Melissa Riccobono:
Jim Marks man, that was the guy that called me when I won my NFB scholarship way back in 2000.
Anil Lewis:
He's a great guy.
Melissa Riccobono:
Great, great guy. Always liked talking to him.
Anil Lewis:
He was talking about his size, his little tag name is the Blind Grizzly (Melissa laughs). Yeah, big guy. Lovable guy.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, absolutely.
Anil Lewis:
Man, this next topic seems a little anticlimatic.
Melissa Riccobono:
It is, but that's okay. This is about Audible and the speed at which people decide to read. So let's take a listen to this.
Audible Ad:
Person one: The best listening speed for an audiobook is at the speed at which it was recorded.
Person two: One.
Person three: Regular speed is good for me.
Person four: I like a normal one x listening speed. My heart rate literally spikes. I'm like, nah, I want to hear people talk at a normal human rate.
Person five: I would only ever listen to an audiobook at the natural speed of one as it were.
Person six: One. Regular speed.
Person seven: Regular speed.
Person eight: Normal. I think people who go real fast are, I don't want to say a psychopath, but it's giving that.
Person nine: One point five is good for boring stuff. Stuff where you're just like, give me the facts, give me them fast. But I think you want to slow down for the good stuff.
Person ten: I start at one, but then once I am in the story, then I flip it up.
Person eleven: You can round up to two, but it's really, you need one point eight, which is, I think is what Goldilocks also likes.
Person twelve: I don't know why you're speeding it up, but you need to look inward and you need to drink less iced coffee.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow. Okay. So lots of different opinions.
Anil Lewis:
(Mocking the voice of one of the people in the Audible ad, a deep, older, British sounding voice) "I would only listen to it on the regular speed" (Melissa laughs). Need to speed you up, buddy (Anil and Melissa laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
That's actually very funny. And I'm going to tell this story very quickly, but my husband and I have a joke about this type of thing because he claims that people that talk fast often listen to JAWS fast, and that people that talk slower often listen to JAWS slower. And it's not a scientific experiment, but whenever I find that one or the other is true, it does always make me smile. So again, what speed do you listen to an audiobook at?
Anil Lewis:
It depends on what I'm listening to. So first of all, I love the fact that Audible and all these other services are making listening to books kind of mainstream because as a blind person when I went blind in '89, it was so hard to find content and you had to get readers to read stuff for you. And now, so to all of the sighted people out there, you're welcome. Welcome to our world. We're glad you're able to enjoy audio content. So you're welcome.
Melissa Riccobono:
You are absolutely welcome. And we're glad that you understand now too. When Audible first started, so much of the content was abridged. And that was back in the stores too. Walden books, Barnes and Noble. Wow. Remember those? You could buy audio books, but many times those were abridged. And now all of a sudden, people don't want abridged content. They want the whole gosh darn thing. And that's really what Audible has done, aside from the National Library Service, which of course did it first. But anyway, yeah.
Anil Lewis:
So like I said, I listen depending. I love when I listened to books that are being read by the authors. When I read Barack Obama's book, I read it at normal speed. I just wanted to seem like Barack Obama was talking to me. Some of the other books I read, if I'm reading a David Baldacci book, I bump it up a little bit, maybe at least one point twenty-five or something because that whole thriller element of it, the speed of the reading also helps add to that feeling. If I'm reading something to get information that is very voluminous, I may crank the speed up even faster just so I can adjust that information until it gets to the point where I really want to drill down and really focus on the content being provided, then I'll slow it down. So I love the fact that it's variable.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah. And I mean, so two things, not only thank you to blind people for audio books in general, thank you to blind people for figuring out a way or whoever figured it out. But I figured it was figured out mostly for blind people, at least at first because when I was a kid, if you wanted to listen to anything faster than it was supposed to be listened to, it sounded like chipmunks.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah. Because you only could go from thirty-three and a third to whatever, you can only flip that switch (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
And I could do it, but it really wasn't that pleasant of a listening experience. And then I remember my sister getting an a APH handy cassette, and the big thing about the a APH handy cassette was you could go...
Anil lewis:
They had that slider.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, exactly it had that slider and it had a pitch slider, and it was a little, I mean, it didn't sound wonderful. It kind of sounded like they were underwater, but at least you could hear it. And it was at a good pitch. And so you could listen really, really fast. And in college for textbooks, I did a lot of what you're talking about Anil, where I would listen faster and then when I really needed to take notes, I would slow it down or something like that. And I do that, but a lot of times if the narrator is very good, I don't want to speed it up. I read Barbara Streisand's book. That thing is like forty-eight hours. It's pretty crazy. Very, very long. But it was like Barbara Streisand...
Anil Lewis:
And she read it?
Melissa Riccobono:
She did. And it was like she and I were having a cup of coffee and I was like, no, I don't want to speed you up, Barbara. Yeah, I could get through it one and a half times faster, but I love that you're sitting here talking to me. Were other things, especially, I don't know what it is about some of the NLS narrators from back in the day, but I listened to the normal speed of them and I think, whoa, we got to speed you up (laughs).
Anil Lewis:
Yeah. I think they were actually trained as though blind people needed to hear it slower, because I see that a lot too, especially back when we were doing RFB and D and that kind of stuff.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh my gosh, yes.
Anil Lewis:
They were like, it was almost like they thought, okay, we have to read this book for blind people, so surely we have to read it slower. No, no, no.
Melissa Riccobono:
But I mean, I don't agree that people are psychopath if they read fast.
Anil Lewis:
No.
Melissa Riccobono:
I think that whatever you prefer is just what you prefer. And actually, we asked our followers on social media what their preferred listening speed is and why, and we have a few responses. Would you like to hear those?
Anil Lewis:
I'd love to hear them.
Melissa Riccobono:
Okay. Katie from Indiana said, "Even more than speed though with a human narrator, the tone is so important to me. If they're doing different voices for characters or have the natural inflection in their voice, that's great narration to me. People who are monotone or sound like they're acting instead of really getting into the character are hard for me to pay attention to at any speed.
" Which is really interesting. She said "Meryl Streep and Tom Hanks both narrated books I listened to recently. And even though I knew their voices, they did such a good job of getting into the characters they were narrating that I just couldn't put those books down. There are a few narrators I avoid because I don't like how they read, and I do text to speech instead." And that's so interesting. There was a book by somebody pretty famous, and this person has read her own books, but this time she didn't. And all the reviews, I thought the narrator was horrible. And all the reviews that I saw on Audible or most of them said the exact same thing. Why didn't you read this book yourself (laughs)?
Anil Lewis:
When people get used to something and comfortable change is difficult all the way. But on the flip side of that, you're absolutely right. I know people who get books from the library based on the narrator, they have their favorite narrator, and it's not even about the author or the title. They just want to get a book by that narrator.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, absolutely. Katelyn from Arizona said, "It depends on the book, but usually on BARD for example, I start at 200. So twice the speed. Generally, the only time I go lower is if the book is older and the sound quality is not as clear or there is an extremely heavy accent. And then I might go down to 175%. Right now I have three books going at 225%. And if it's a book I've read before or has parts that are a bit dry, I may go to 250%." Wow.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, that's impressive.
Melissa Riccobono:
I don't think I could do that. "When I'm listening with other family members around, I will often drop to 137%. So their brains used to reading print words, don't get too confused. Wow, that's fast. That's really, really fast."
Anil Lewis:
That's considerate. For those listeners who don't know, the BARD is the Braille and Audio Recording Download that the National Library Service provides free to blind and print disabled individuals. So if you don't know, please reach out to your local affiliate president or your local library and get more information. It's wonderful.
Melissa Riccobono:
It is. And it's free books and lots of them, and they're getting more and more all the time, and so definitely such a great service. And lastly, we have Sarah who said "I listened to them at the original speed. If I don't like the narrator, I delete the book" (laughs). PLane and simple. So what do you do, Anil? What's your, you already said, as I said, I sometimes go faster, but on Audible specifically, I usually don't. I usually find those, and I usually do normal speed. It's more on the BARD downloads that I tend to go faster.
Anil Lewis:
I think my normal is about one point two, one point twenty-five 1.25 on both platforms.
Melissa Riccobono:
Got it.
Anil Lewis:
It's rare that I go below that, but I will get just a normal speed. When I read the Nelson Mandela autobiography that he read himself,
I came back from the South Africa trip. I just listened to him talk. Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
What great books we have out there, man, we're so lucky.
Anil Lewis:
I agree.
Melissa Riccobono:
And to have authors that can narrate their own and to have people who can narrate at home. I mean, I'm starting to narrate books. Pretty soon I should have a book up on Audible, so...
Anil Lewis:
You have that vocal variety. I can see you reading books and making them interesting, especially for kids.
Melissa Riccobono:
I really hope so. It's a young adult novel and I'm so excited. The author is blind and I'm so excited that she gave me the opportunity. And I'm also in the middle of reading one for our local library because they have a studio where they record books by Maryland authors. And there's a Maryland author that I know that recorded three kids books. So I'm doing that. That one's been slow because that's been in my spare time and I don't always make spare time for it, so I really need to get back to it.
Anil Lewis:
That's nice. But we want to make sure that everybody has, you have permission to read at whatever speed that you enjoy. Don't let anyone dictate.
Melissa Riccobono:
Read the speed you want. We'll never call you psycho or anything else (laughs).
Anil Lewis:
And Melissa, maybe you'll get an invitation to talk about your book reading on The Breakfast Club, full circle.
Melissa Riccobono:
That would be cool. I'd accept it if I think I, I'd have to not roll my eyes, which might be tough (Anil laughs). My face tends to show, I have a very loud face, I've been told. But anyway, yes, I would certainly talk to them.
Anil Lewis:
Don't need to hide how you feel, don't need at all. But I hope this has been entertaining and educational for you guys. Please give us feedback on the new format, if there are other news items that you want to bring to our attention for us to discuss. More than happy to delve into that. If you want to be one of our guests, if you have an expertise or knowledge around something, love to have you. But until then, remember, you can live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Blindness is not what holds you back.
New Speaker:
We'd love your feedback. Email [email protected] or call 410-659-9314. Extension 2444.